Emotions and Entrepreneurs

Diving into Coaching – Drasko Raicevic

[00:00:00] All right, so I’m super excited to have Rasco Raic with us today. He was with us last year in an actual interview. Today we’re gonna do something different. We’re gonna do some coaching of each other. We’re both coaches, we’re both super similar in the types of people we coach. And, um, This is just an experiment I wanted to try.

So in this episode, I will be coaching Draco and then there’ll be another episode where he’s coaching me and, um, I think it’s gonna be fun. So Draco, thanks for being willing to just do this and hang out a little bit. Oh, you, you’re so very welcome. And, and I was super happy when uh, you sent the invitation my way to, to do this cuz for people that don’t know, so my, my whole podcast is bringing on entrepreneurs and then coaching them through their head trash on the show.

So it’s, Only fitting that, that I would be willing to, to walk my own talk and do the exact same thing, cuz I know for [00:01:00] all the people that I bring on, it’s like it takes a certain level of vulnerability and courage. So it would be very unfitting of me to say no to an invitation like this. I’m excited to, to dive into it and, and to go through the same experience on the opposite end.

[00:01:13] Intro to Drasko

Excellent. Excellent. It’s so good. Okay, so a short recap, and you’re gonna correct me if I’m wrong, but you had originally had a weight loss center, a gym that over time morphed into because you did all your own kind of SEO and funnels and all of that. You learned how to do all of it. You ended up doing that for entrepreneurs.

In developing that skillset, what you found out you really liked doing was coaching them more than fixing their funnels or all of that sort of stuff. Right. So, um, why don’t you give me kind of the best and worst of being a coach and then let’s dive into kind of the topic you wanna talk through. Yeah. So I think, uh, actually your question, I think we’ll probably dive into what I wanted to, to [00:02:00] bring up, right?

Because it was like, okay, what, what’s the best and the worst of Yeah, like coaching, right? So I think. It’s the first thing that comes to mind, and it was like, I think the thing that I wanted to bring up with you today is one of the ways that I got good at coaching and continue to like sharpen my saw is I, I’m very diligent about using my own tools on myself, right?

So the, the way that. I got good at, let’s just say, working with the entrepreneurs that I work with now. Like I use what would traditionally be thought of as like therapeutic, uh, counseling or psychology type modalities in my work. And it’s like, okay, well I’m not a therapist. Like, how could I possibly use these?

Application

How could I get good at them? So I, I do, you know, if anybody’s watching some video, a lot of my own reading, so I, I studied these people, but more importantly, it’s not about just. Theory, like I, I want to be able to apply it and I’ve had others apply it to me. I’m like, oh, this worked really well [00:03:00] to like, get me through X, Y, Z I wanna get good at it.

So I, I go through, and my minimum standard for these things is to do like a hundred reps of a particular modality, right? So like, let’s just say if I learn a new way to bust beliefs, I would do a hundred. Uh, instances and record these of how I do it. Or like, I use parts work, like if, anyways, familiar with Turtle Family Systems.

I, I use a lot of that in my own coaching. So I would go through like a hundred reviews of doing it to myself, right? So that’s obviously work really great to not just build up my skillset, but to allow me to work through a lot of things. So that’s been, you know, one good thing is like I, I have the reps to help my clients.

And you ask like, okay, well what’s the bad part about that? I, I think it’s inevitable you’re gonna get to this point where, as I always say, it’s like hard to see the building when you’re standing on the balcony. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Like at some point you reach with certain things and it’s not with everything, but like you, you reach your point.

Outside Support

Like you just need that [00:04:00] outside support. And in default as well, I know I should know how to do this. I should be able to work through it myself. Why can’t I do it? Right? And you get into, it’s like it’s own negative loop. So, I don’t know if that answers your question, but that’s kind of what’s present and And I figured that that’s what I would bring in today.

Okay, let me rephrase and then you tell me where I’m wrong. First of all, I wanna say anyone who does a hundred reps of anything that feels like your background in weight loss in the gym and keeping track and wow, I’m impressed and you have now sparked my thinking. Like, okay, doing it 5, 6, 7 times is not.

So good on you for that. But what I hear you saying is, um, Uh, perhaps you’re saying you feel like you have maybe reached a ceiling in your own growth and development, and you’re wondering how to lead people in places that are beyond where you have gone. Is that what you’re saying? So I would say yes and no.

I, I wouldn’t say I’ve reached a [00:05:00] ceiling in that like I, I. Have coaches as well, right? Like, so like I, I, I do reach for support and certain things, let’s just say we’re cordes near the beginning of the year. So I made like a huge investment in really upping my business skillset to take my business on nights level.

Asking for Support

So I’m like, let’s just say invested in getting supported in that area. Um, and I guess what I’m more saying is, let’s just say with my own inner work, I guess what’s present for me right now is I, I, I’ve relied on myself so much. I’ve maybe not asked for enough help here because I’m kind of going on to the business end because I’ve been so successful at doing it myself, which I know is ironic because that’s exactly why I work with the, the individuals who have all the support in business or have done it in business, but they can’t put it together cuz the personal isn’t there.

So it’s kind of like I’m being my own best client here and asking for support, uh, in this [00:06:00] way as well. So yeah, that, that I think would be to, to rephrase it or just add the nuance to it. That nuance. It’s not like a cap cap, it’s just in this moment I feel like that’s what’s most present. Yeah, I think I hear what you’re saying.

[00:06:16] Keeping up with Momentum

If you were to imagine, um, this particular problem being solved or better or bigger, how does that, you look different than this? You. Hmm. Um,

there’s a sense of freedom with that. Um, there’s a sense of, I think clarity would be the big one. So, okay. I guess I’ll, I’ll bring to the container like what it is that I’m struggling with. So the beginning of this year, like business-wise has been one of the, the better. Certainly the [00:07:00] better starts to the year, but like, just the momentum that’s been generating this year has been really great.

And despite that, it, it, it’s like that there’s almost a part of me, there’s a part that’s excited and, and I’ve like committed to really making this the biggest year thus far. And then there’s another part of me that really. Anchors into the old and is like pulling me back. Right? And so for me, I, I tend to, in like unregulated times, I tend to like underperform or like fawn, like that, that’s generally my stress response.

And I’m just finding it interesting that like when I get into these states and I underperform, so I don’t take enough action, I put like on, on the surface it looks like procrastination, but I, like, I can feel myself, I’m, there’s something that I don’t want to face. It’s like I’ve gone through so much work in so many different areas around this that I’m.

Reflection

Don’t [00:08:00] have the clarity on like what this is all about. It doesn’t feel specifically like, it’s like a fear of success, but it’s somehow in and around, like related to that area. Um, so yeah, I’ll, I’ll just leave it at that and you let me know when. Yeah. People who do a lot of self-development work get really good at understanding the nuances, and what I hear you saying is your life looks super successful.

But you know, something is off. You know that in a place where you could or should be facing into the wind, you’re turning your back and letting it sort of roll off your shoulder. It’s not bad. It’s not pushing you backwards, but you’re like, what is this? What is this? And a part of you is stirring up trouble inside you.

Correct. Yeah, so I would say the parts that resonate with that reflection, definitely the, the stirring up trouble, definitely the, the lack of clarity of like, okay, well what, what [00:09:00] is this part that wants to, again, on the surface, I know it’s self sabotaging, but I, I know there’s some component of it that’s keeping me safe from something.

I’m not really sure what that something is. Yeah. Do you have any hunches I. Bigness in magnificence is things that I’ve been exploring on my own that are coming up. So I think it’s probably something to do with that. I don’t think it’s necessarily success as like maybe success from the point of. Bigness in the sense of like, okay, well, that I can’t turn back like this has gone so deep and it’s becoming so big, like this is now who I am.

Verbalizing

And as I verbalize that, like I feel. Like a stirring of like fear through like my chest, right? And it’s kind of like dissipated now. But as I verbalized at the first, I was like, [00:10:00] oh, okay. There, there, there’s something there. There’s something there. When you think about bigness and I mean, there’s two things about, you know, I can’t turn back.

That sounds scary. That part of you that says, Ooh, if we get too big and I can’t turn back, what is it afraid of at a granular level? That’s a good question. Uh, and a good catch. So what would this part be afraid of?

[00:10:35] Identity Change

So identity change is the first thing that comes to mind. Um, there’s a sense of loss like this when I tune into that part of like my chest and torso. It’s like a combination of, it [00:11:00] feels like a soup of like fear and sadness and grief all at the same time. That’s kind of intense. Yes. And does the, the more that I speak, I think the other part that’s coming up now is like, All of the vices that I would normally go to, to self sooth.

So again, with the Fawn pattern, I’ve had a lot of like predictive patterns that I’ve overcome with time. It’s like those would all be gone, like there wouldn’t be any space for them. So it’s like the, the fear is like I will lose the historical like vestige of how I’ve. Centrally numbed or self self-medicate, like who am I without those things?

What am I gonna do? Am I ever gonna be able to like pleasure or like self-soothe and self-pleasure from that way? Yeah. Like if, like say food was a big one. Like if I [00:12:00] move into this life and I express in the way I want to express, it’s kind of. Overeating on, you know, chocolate doesn’t belong there. So what, like what, what am I if I don’t do that?

Yeah. Is it if I move into this next level, if I become this magnificent, I don’t get to be human. I don’t get to fail. I don’t get to overeat on chocolate or I, I don’t know what these other vices are. You know, numb out with alcohol or whatever they are. If I become this big, clearly the big grates don’t do this.

Making the Choice

So I don’t necessarily think it’s the greats that don’t do this. It, it’s like the, the sense is like there’s no room for [00:13:00] these things there. Like, these things don’t belong because they don’t belong there. because, so I guess the sense is it, it, it’s like a. It’s almost like a binary choice. Like either you keep, you know, these like vices or you give them up completely to succeed. Yeah. Do you think that’s true or does that part think that’s true? Yeah, logically I don’t think it’s true. Um, internally, Yeah, I would say that, that this part believes the path.

Like there’s just no room for that. Like I, I’m getting the visual of like, like if I [00:14:00] wanted to be an athlete like that, there’s certain compromises that, that just go with that. Like your sleep has to be on point, your training has to be on point, pulling it. You have to say no to, you know, social things, et cetera.

It’s like, The two don’t go together to be at that level and have these patterns. Yeah. When you think about this internal roadblock, Do you think the solution is working with the parts that wanna keep the vice vices? Is the solution working with the part who thinks there’s no room for the vices and feels kind of all or none or black and white in my mind?

Or is there a third solution? What’s your internal sense of the way forward? That’s a good question. Um, okay. I don’t have a clear answer, so let me just [00:15:00] tune in and see.

Tuning In

So I don’t have my eyes closed right now, so it’s just, I’m trying to like tune in. Um, and I can feel like as soon as I. And ask that question. There’s like a part that covers, like, I, I, I describe this feeling as like, I, like I drop a d IQ points. It’s like I, I just, I’m, I’m blank. Like I don’t Yeah. Like I can’t process.

Yeah. I mean, part of it is when you’re being recorded, there is this sense of, I gotta figure it out now. And I’m gonna say, feel free to take your time, because I can always edit out long pauses. Okay. But also ask that, I’m gonna [00:16:00] call it like a smothering or blanket part. What does it need from you to feel safe?

So there’s a sense of,

so to not like ostracize and cut off, like, I, I, I get the visual of like, it’s afraid that I’m gonna go in there almost like a SWAT team and just like destroy Yeah. So it’s like I, I think it’s afraid of, I don’t like these certain aspects, I don’t like these parts, so I’m just gonna completely and utterly obliterate them.

Yeah. If you asked for permission to go in as a negotiator, not as [00:17:00] a SWAT team, to go in and learn. Not necessarily take action, would that part Believe you?

So it’s interesting as I listen to you and I prompt to do this,

I actually feel this part ballooning out. Like I’m, I’m, I’m dissociating away. Like I know I’m here, but it’s like I feel like I’m, I’m, I’m up here. I’m disassociating from this feeling and sentiment, like there’s a lot of. Aspects of me that don’t even wanna go here. So, yeah. Yeah. It, I, you’re creating pressure, more pressure than it wants to sort of, um, engage with.

Leaving Things Behind

It’s, [00:18:00] if it were a tiger, it’d be growling at you. Back up a little bit, buddy. Back up a little bit. So, back up a little bit. Give it some. Okay, and let’s, let’s play. What if, what if we ended, I’m not saying we have to end the conversation here, but if we ended the conversation here, what is your insight from just these few moments of asking these parts questions?

So insight would be, There’s a very tender, conflicted,and scared part to all of this. Yeah. That it’s not as simple as saying, okay, this is [00:19:00] this or this is that, and, and it is just like a simple reframe. Like there is a very. Scared part of me. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn’t want to leave these things behind. Hmm.

If you promised your system not to make changes, could, could you reach out to that scared part and just ask it to help you understand more?

[00:19:42] Feelings

So it’s like the, the first thing that I feel is before I can even go there, the

disassociation like, like a, like I feel like it’s like a [00:20:00] hot air balloon. Like it’s so. Massive that these parts are too high. It’s like the first thing I would actually need is to like deflate and ground. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Take a couple deep breaths and do what you know to do to ground you. Yeah.

So I’m just reaffirming to myself that at the end of the day, I’m here curiously and compassionately, that I’m in a container that is safe and that those same things are wanted for all of the parts and for me as well. Mm-hmm. And [00:21:00] I’m celebrating all of the parts for allowing themselves to be witnessed in this way as well.

Mm-hmm. And I’m honoring them for like, I can slowly feel like all of that and disassociation. Shrinking slowly but surely. Sure. Sometimes people can see internal parts or they’re aware, this is my small part, or this is my part who does X, or sometimes they have names and personalities. You don’t necessarily have to say this out loud, but I wonder if you could ask each of those parts.

Um, What do you notice right now just physically present in this room and see if we can get each of them kind of in the room in each of them [00:22:00] grounded.

Stepping Out

So the only visual I get is like all of the parts we worked or brought up initially are kind of like on this bench, on the ground, and in this top, most. Protective. Is kind of up in the air looking down and it’s kind of saying, okay, like, yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll make my way down. I’ll allow it. Yeah. Yeah. Just ask each part.

What are they literally noticing in the room? Like for example, I can see your sword, I can see your books, but if you go like visual, audio, tactile, Let each part say one thing that they’re noticing. Okay. So obviously one part is, is hearing you. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] Another part is feeling the chair underneath me. Uh, another part’s feeling the feet that are touching floor right now.

Another parts feeling. Um, my hands. And then another part is actually hesitant to open my eyes. Cause I feel like if I open my eyes, I will snap that balloon out. Mm.

And my inclination, obviously I know I can open my eyes, but before I do, I wanna just make peace with opening my eyes. Yeah. And then just snapping abruptly out. And don’t feel like you have to, it’s entirely fine to do the entire conversation this way.

Whatever is best for those various spaces in you to [00:24:00] keep them feeling safe. So yeah, when I ask it, okay, do you, how do you feel about. Me opening my eyes, it’s like, Nope, no, don’t do that. Okay. Okay. That’s fair. How, um, how big does the above you part feel? Is it more grounded or still it’s a lot closer to the ground.

Stop or Continue

I feel like, you know, I’m back in the room. Good, good. Not a hundred percent there, but back in the. Yeah, so out of gratitude to each of these parts being willing to work, maybe you can ask them what they need from this moment, whether that’s to stop or to continue or I, I don’t know what each one of them needs.[00:25:00]

So when I ask that, I feel like those lower parts that we started with, the ones that were on the ground, they’re kind of like, you know, tapping their hand being like, Hey, like look at the time, like, wh when is it our turn? Mm-hmm. And then the, this associated part, it’s, it’s.

It’s kind of like the, the kid that knows it’s time is up on this like ride. It’s like, okay, I don’t really wanna leave, but like I am aware that I have to give this up and go. Mm-hmm. The ones who are kind of tapping their hands, when is it our turn? Is it when is it our turn to speak? Or when is it our turn to coach?

When is it our turn to speak and be. Ah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ask your kind of dissociative balloon part. [00:26:00] Would that part allow you to speak to the parts that want to, to, or I guess a better way of saying it is, would it allow those other parts to speak so that you can listen? Yeah, it’s okay with that. Okay.

[00:26:18] Disassociation

What do those parts want to say?

They’re quite angry and frustrated at the disassociated part of like, Hey, uh, there’s something here that we wanna solve. You’re wasting all this time. Like, let’s get the show on the road. Yeah. Some impatience. That’s okay. I will speak to those parts and say that’s okay. We have plenty of time. It’s all good.

Something I’ll say to each of your parts is that they’re equally valued and valuable and they each have a voice. They each need to be heard, but not [00:27:00] at the expense of the other ones. So, Everybody has to have respect for the other part. So it’s not okay when somebody shuts somebody down. It’s not okay when somebody like silences someone else.

So tell your impatient part. We’re good. We’re all good.

Okay. It was. Reluctantly received that message. Yeah. Who else has something they wanna say?

So it’s like, when you asked me that question, there was this part, almost like all these bickering parts kind of looked behind them and then stepped aside the side to reveal. It’s [00:28:00] not distinct, but it’s like a smaller light, very delicate

tender. Like a, like a shy child. Like there’s something that that part wants to say. Yeah. How old is that? Part three is the first number I get. Oh, he’s just little. Yeah. Ask him what he would like to say.

So he is asking, why do you keep covering me? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Your Truest Self

Draco can your truest, wisest self. In internal family systems, they would call this the self, I like to call it your wise [00:29:00] self. Can he get down on one knee with this tiny little person so that he’s eye to eye and say, I know sometimes they cover you, but I am fully present and I’m willing to listen and I’m here.

So, yeah, I, I can do that. Um, the little part of me is not trusting of,

I guess, my intentions mm-hmm. To make that last. It’s kind of, it gets suspecting that I’m paying it. Lip service not being genuine. Yeah. Why, why does he, [00:30:00] uh, suspect that of you?

Because, Every time this part wants to come out and shine, it gets stuffed down. Yeah. By whatever it gets stuffed down with any possible thing. From food to scrolling, to porn, to video games, to YouTube, to like, whatever. I can throw its way. To just stuff it down. And I’ve done that for the majority of my life. So it doesn’t really trust, yeah.

That I have its best interests at heart. That’s fair. Is [00:31:00] he your magnificence?

[00:31:19] Pushing Back

What if rather than asking him to speak? And if I ask you to do something that doesn’t feel genuine, you know, push back and make a, make a counter offer. But I sense in you that there are pieces of you right now that are. Maybe seeing this little vulnerable tender part for what it is and that you feel regret for the ways you’ve pushed it down and smothered it and not let it speak.

I wonder if you said to that little one, Hey, could you look in my eyes and could I [00:32:00] apologize for the way I’ve treated you, and I get why you don’t trust me. And that’s okay.

So it, it gets like, the little part of me

like starts to get angry. It’s saying, It’s like, it’s basically scolding me to be like, look, here you are. You need a proxy. You need somebody else to like speak on your behalf with all the things. Like, why can’t you just connect to me?

That’s why I don’t trust you. [00:33:00] Is he saying that about me? That I’m the proxy? Yeah. Um, what if you said some version of I’m learning and I don’t do it perfectly all the same time. Mm-hmm. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love you. It just means I’m learning and getting better at it. And you don’t have to trust.

Until I get better at it,

so it’s in okay. Once they hear the same words from me to it.[00:34:00]

So I’m gonna speak directly. Yeah. To it. Yeah. And I’m gonna start by saying that it’s actually awkward for me to speak to you, but I’m willing to do it because. I care about this relationship. I care about the integration of this relationship,

Drasko’s Childhood

ultimately I really miss, oh, when I’m clearing something, I do cough. So that’s what that’s happening there. Makes sense to me. Um, what I do miss. Quite a bit when I look at flashbacks from my childhood is[00:35:00]

how unfiltered and bold and like unbridled

I’ve been in, not even thinking about owning my magnificence and bigness, but just being and embodying it. And I know that there’s probably times when that was too much for my parents to handle, so it was probably stuffed down quite a lot more than you would’ve liked. And then I know I continued to stuff it down to just appease them and that it took me a long time to actually make peace with.

Prioritizing myself and that[00:36:00]

I’m doing this specifically to ensure that that connection is not only broken or never broken again, but it’s actively celebrated and nurtured.

And actually as I do that, I can feel that light like growing bicker and deeper and like I, I, I can feel it in my extremities of like, it’s going into my hands, it’s going into my feet like it feels.

Not like I’m putting it on, but it just, it just feels like it’s finding itself in like the crevices of my body. Again, like it’s, [00:37:00] it’s, it’s finding ways to embody itself into me

and it feels very natural and good to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Well done. That’s risky on so many levels. So well done. Do you wanna ask if anybody else needs anything from you in this moment, or is this complete?

The Visual

So, yeah, when I asked that, I get this [00:38:00] visual of like, uh, almost like a, you know, 1930s, 1940s, like construction worker being like, okay, and who’s gonna pay for like our wages as. I know it is like these other parts have been doing this labor and this work that now seems like, it’s

like it’s old and unnecessary and I guess they don’t feel compensated or appreciated for the work that they’ve had to do to, I don’t know, do do whatever it is that they. Yeah, so could you speak to each one of them and thank them for the work that they’ve done and say, oh no, you’ve been incredibly necessary.

Without you, I couldn’t have gotten here, and I don’t wanna get rid of you. I’m [00:39:00] wondering if you would like a little bit different job, if you would like to take what you used to do and morph it a little bit.

It was funny as, as soon as I try to do that, I just get the visual of him like spitting on the ground and being like, yeah, I don’t need your lip service. Like, I need payment. Ask him what payment means.

[00:39:46] What does Payment Mean?

It’s saying energy and emotion like it. It doesn’t need me to say things. It needs me to pay in kind with like emotional [00:40:00] appreciation and gratitude. Like that part wants you to feel gratitude. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Is that something you could practice allowing yourself to do right now?

Yeah, I definitely can.

So yeah, the f it’s like the first thing that comes up is. Just curiosity. Like, okay, well what, like what does he want to be thanked for? Like what was his actual like role? And he’s saying like he spent so much time building up all the scaffolding around that tender magnificence part. Cause they kept trying to like pop up and then they would just keep having to rebuild all the [00:41:00] scaffolding to stuff it down.

And it’s like a lot of redoing and rejigging. And again, like, it’s like so much energy, like keeping a beach ball down underwater.

So I’m acknowledging it like, yeah, that’s. A lot of years spent on this hamster wheel of just stuffing that down. And even though in this moment it feels like it was unnecessary work, like it was just work for the sake of work, at the end of the day, if I had known better, I would’ve requested better.

Mm-hmm. And it was important in those times to [00:42:00] move. Me through whatever it is that I was going through. It was the best that I could do with the tools that I had at the time. Yeah. And that realization was the best payment I could possibly provide to that part. Are you saying that to me or are you saying that to them? It was the best compensation that could provide to you. So speaking to the part?

Being Genuine

Does it feel your genuineness?

Yeah. It’s kind of gimme the wink and the handshake of like, okay, yeah, you’re, you’re not so bad yourself. And it’s, but it’s hat back on. It’s like, okay, I’m gonna be on my way. Yeah. [00:43:00] Does anybody else need anything or are we complete?

No, that feels complete. Hmm.

And the part that wants you to keep your eyes closed. How does he feel about you kind of reengaging with this world? Uh, no, he is not present here anymore. He’s totally fine with it. Okay. All right. Well, if that feels complete, then a deep breath and thank you for your courage.

Yeah, [00:44:00] I’m back. Yeah. Was that, uh, unexpected?

I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s unexpected from, uh, an experience perspective of like, yeah. Had many experiences like this, both myself and facilitated by others. Um, it was unexpected in terms of how I thought my magnificence would be. Like by definition, I expected it to be big, big, but it was actually extremely small and tender and can constantly beat down, which after the fact makes sense.

But yeah, it’s not how I would’ve expected that piece. Yeah, yeah. Do you have any inkling or anticipation of how your life might be different moving forward?[00:45:00]

I, I’m not sure. I, I don’t know if I could bring it to like a day-to-day thing. I, because I, I think it, it is just gonna take some more iterations to like, interact with that part. Yeah. Um, it’s almost like we’ve been reintroduced and now it’s like, okay, we, we, we gotta get, we gotta get each to actually know each other.

Trust

Yeah, you have to get him to trust you before you’ll see, you know, your true magnificent shine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That feels right. Yeah. Oh my gosh, Draco, I’m so excited to just see how this plays out over time and, uh, yeah, thanks so much just for being willing to go here with me. Well, thank you for facilitating it all so beautifully, and, uh, allowing me to go there.

Excellent. [00:46:00] Okay, well, we’ll, I’ll cut that off after our thank yous and like I. I don’t know that I have any questions because in my mind I, I was not expecting to go there. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. In my mind that is like, I mean, I do a ton of ifs or have done a to ton of IFS therapy. That would be one of my favorite modalities for sure.

Um, I just in the, in, in the coaching vernacular. I mean, I definitely would call, I don’t know, I, I, you’re like breaking my head open into, you know, maybe I’m trying to compartmentalize myself in a way that’s not the best, maybe I should allow myself to do. You know, this hybrid thing of coaching and therapy [00:47:00] more.

[00:47:01] Therapy and Coaching

Oh. So like, I guess, like you were saying, you stay away from including this in your coaching work cuz it’s technically a therapeutic. Yeah. Okay. Um, speaking from a experience, it’s, it’s a complete opposite for me. Um, I, I, I’m all for. It’s kind of like, you actually have more credentials than me to do this work with people.

Right. So it’s like, why would you not do it? Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, in the therapy world, therapists hate coaches. Just hate them because they’re all like, you know, you’re doing all this and you’re not qualified and blah, blah, and all this stuff. And I try and keep them very separate. This is this and this is that, and whatever.

But I, I think that this experience, Can show me like, there’s a lot of joy when I help someone navigate through something like that. You know, [00:48:00] for me, that piece of me feels like, ah, that was valuable for him. So then I feel valuable, you know? Yeah, a hundred percent. And I mean, again, I’ll just give you my perspective, uh, on it.

It’s like, so like I had no. Like I had no business being in fitness. Like I went to a business school, got a business degree, and then the only other thing I did was, look, I did it, I did martial arts. So it’s like, how do you go from there to like personal training and nutrition? It’s like what allowed me to be successful in that is like when I.

Needs Differ

Like coaching people, like exercise. I was doing cardio kickboxing class, so I knew how to like run that. But then people started coming to me for weight loss and I was like, okay, this like, it is kind of dangerous to have somebody [00:49:00] this overweight do this type of work. I was like, I can’t do that. It’s like, well, what else would I do?

So like that led me into personal training. I was like, okay, we’ll do squats. Squats are good for people. Cool. Hey guys, like do a squad. He’s like, well, my knees hurt. I’m like, okay, well that’s interesting. Why do your knees hurt? So then that led me down the road of like, uh, rehab and physiotherapy and anatomy and like learning proper biomechanics.

Like I had no. Business doing any of that. But it was the needs of the client that got me Yeah. To do that. And like that’s what led me to, you know, the only reason I got my personal training certification was at one point early on I was like, oh, maybe I could work on a cruise ship, but they need like a certification.

So that’s the only reason I got it. But it’s like nobody ever asked me, like, and then I got certified nutrition cause I just wanna learn more in nutrition. Sure. And ended up being a certification. But long story short, just to say it’s like. Coming from the outside in, it’s like, I [00:50:00] don’t, I never bought into the dogma of like, this needs to be, this way’s, like, I’m not a physiotherapist, so I can’t like use this, you know, test of movements.

Not the Profession

Like, why, like if, if it helps me coach my client, who cares? Why not? Yeah. Right. And even now in this space, it’s like, Because it works both ways. Like coaches also like, don’t necessarily have a good experience of therapists. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But it’s like the same with any profession. Like you have crappy contractors, you have crappy personal trainers, you have crappy nutrition.

It’s like, its not the profession, it’s, it’s, it’s the person doing it. And it’s like, coaches always say, well, we focus on the future and like, moving you ahead and the therapists are gonna make you look in the past. Okay. But it’s like, what if the things in the past are directly impacting? The stuff that you’re doing now, and what if that business action you don’t want to take is because of some trauma response that you know, okay, you weren’t raped, but like your third grade teacher told you that you suck.

Like, yeah, who am I to say that that was or [00:51:00] was not traumatic enough for you to keep you? You know what I mean? So it’s just like, yeah, I know you know all of this, but it’s like. I don’t see why you would, from my vantage point, say no to a modality that can actually help somebody make peace with it or get there faster.

Yeah, right. Like, yeah, you could iterate your way through a whole bunch of actions to like, Install a new sense of being, but like if I can just heal. Yeah. An integrated part of me that didn’t wanna do that to begin with, like why not go with a faster way around it, you know? So for sure. I thought that’s just my thought process.

Gaining Traction

I, I agree with you entirely, and I do use it. I just don’t. Maybe use it quite as much. I mean, I love that you were familiar with the, the therapy model and you’re so open and so connected to your parts that in a very short amount of time, you can get some real traction, you know? [00:52:00] Just felt like together.

That’s just, like I said, reps, right? Like I, I can, I, I know for somebody who’s never done it, it’s like a totally different, uh, experience of like, okay, well I feel my shoulder cause I slept bad. So like, that’s the only thing I feel and like yeah. You know, and, and you gotta get through that. But yeah. So yeah, I understand it.

It’s a non-typical like maybe experience for people listening in or whatever, but yeah, I would say if, if, and and I, I’m like you, like I, I, This, like to me, this is such a. Not just quick and easy, but it’s just so fulfilling to watch somebody make that connection and connect and integrate and, and be with those pieces.

So, yeah. YeahI’m all for it. A hundred percent. Ah, that’s so great. Thanks so much for the time and the experience.

End Credits

 

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As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

Love – Callum Wilson, Elaine Lajuenesse, and Miriam Gunn

Callum, Elaine, Miriam, Pt 2 – Love (and men and emotions)

[00:00:00] Hey friends. So if you are tuning into this for the first time i would encourage you to go back and start with last week’s episode because that’s the first part of this conversation

and you’ll get to know my friends Callum and Elaine from that conversation.

I split it -this is the second half last week we talked about being versus doing and this week the continuation of this conversation is talking about love I hope you enjoy

[00:00:28] Love

Elaine Lajuenesse: Should we talk about love because

Callum Wilson: Yeah. Okay.

Miriam Gunn: You know, because Sounds good to me. Yeah.

Elaine Lajuenesse: Yeah, since we’re talking about the real thing here, like how often do you say I love you to your client?

Miriam Gunn: Okay, so, you know, my training is in, I mean, my early training was theological and I said, I love you to the people I [00:01:00] was working with all the time. Then my midlife training was psychological and there were tons of boundaries around that, and people would say, yeah, I wasn’t allowed to touch anybody. People would say occasionally, and I just like you so much, or I love you, Miriam, or whatever.

And I’d say, I know, always felt very like I mean, I cared for them too. I, in my coaching clients, I’ve had several say, I love you and I’ve said I love you back. I, what’s, one of the reasons I moved into the coaching space is that the, the constriction of the medical model of therapy in the United States.

I mean, it’s there for good reasons. It is there for good reasons, but it was confining for me and I needed to be able to say, I genuinely love the person that you are. And when you see the real person, I mean, many times I love the [00:02:00] doing person too, but when you see the real being of someone, you always love them because the real being is, you know, it’s the good stuff.

Judging People

Callum Wilson: Yeah, I’m, I’m quite glad you sort of went there because I had a sort of, you know, wondering how I was gonna approach that recently, just realizing that, like I said before, I think we’re all the same. I think we’re all just part of nature. And I also, I weirdly don’t feel that, I don’t feel that separation.

I used to. So I kind of see myself in everyone. And I also re understand that if I live this exactly the same life as someone else, I would be exactly the same as them. Even evil people. And I think even evil people, there might be evil acts, but I don’t think there’s a genuine evil intent. I think that in some way, even the worst people in the world are [00:03:00] thinking, their reasoning in some way, they see it as a positive. So there’s this part of me that goes, you know, what if I, if I, if I lived your life, I could be exactly the same as you. And then, and then when I look at people when I’m, and I might in the previous, you know, earlier in life, I’ve judged them. Now I look at them, I’m like, I get it like cruel human.

It only takes a few bad decisions or a few moments where you’re not, you don’t stand up for your true self and you end up in a, in a bad position. And I, I feel like. I don’t know if luck’s the right word, because we all make these choices, but like, I kind of feel lucky that in some ways to, I’m, I’m really grateful to my younger self for making several of those decisions that mean that I can now be in a position to talk about it like this.

Loving People

But to answer the question, like, how often do I tell people, oh, my clients, I love them. Not that often actually. But I do love them because I kind of love, like I was trying to explain, I kind of love everyone now. I’ve never, I, in the last few months I’ve had this really [00:04:00] different feeling inside me.

It’s, it is bizarre. Like I’m kind of constantly feeling like looking at people and being like, oh, deep down, like, I really love you. I heard love being explained as like being able to kind of see. It’s like, see through someone else’s eyes and understand them from that position. And I was like, oh yeah, geez.

That’s actually what I’m experiencing a lot in life. I’m able to go, yeah, I get you. Like I, I understand. On some level. So interesting. And I’m actually taking that as kind of a challenge, Elaine. Maybe I’m gonna try it. Tell them that I love them because I do. And why hold back the truth? Yeah.

[00:04:43] Connection

Elaine Lajuenesse: Yeah.

Because I come from a place where like, I, I grew up in a, an environment where my dad was telling us he loves us all the time. And in my life I went the other direction where I was not, I was kind of cheap with my, I love things. And [00:05:00] and my last assistant we had a really, really nice connection.

Her and I, and, and, you know, when I lost my job, still lost her job. That’s how it works. And she decided to go to the states and stuff and and I remember the first time I told her I loved her, it was like, we’ve worked together for a year and a half or maybe even more. It was six months after we both got got out of the job and, and she said, oh, I thought you were gonna say to me, but I just thought it was gonna be a year later.

Like, she, she kind of knew who I was and and then today morning I was, I was coaching a client and I just like, blurted like, I just, I love you. And it felt really good. And so, like, I really wanna bring this more cuz for so long I’ve been really cheap with I love you to people and, and I think people need to hear it more, not less.

Callum Wilson: Yeah. A hundred percent do, do you, are you guys [00:06:00] familiar with Byron Katie’s. Loving what is book? No, that’s a great book. She, she, she has something called

The Inquiry. So it’s four questions.

The Inquiry

Is it true?

Absolutely true. The effect of, so it’s about belief. Sorry. You have a belief, a new question. Is it true?

Absolutely true effect of holding this belief and then life without the belief, and then you do a turnaround to make it it’s called Loving What is.

But yeah, it’s, it’s kind of like the basis of doing the work, I think is what you’d call it. But what I love about it is it always brings you back to reality.

The idea is you do this inquiry to find the truth behind the beliefs. And I was just thinking as you were saying what you, what you were just saying there, Elaine, is like, in some ways when you don’t. When you don’t tell someone that you love them, it’s not like you are lying, but you are also holding back the truth.

And probably the reason it feels so great to [00:07:00] tell someone you love them is cuz you’re just living in reality. Cuz loving what is, is basically the ti the title is just to say like, loving reality. And the reality is if it’s, you know, if you love someone, you are, you are living in reality. And it, and it actually feels quite nice to be there.

Like it’s totally honest, basic, I think.

So in some ways I guess I’m holding back honesty by not telling more people that I love them. I, I only really recently started doing it to my mom and dad a bit more. And it feels so good. Yeah. Miriam, have you got any thoughts?

[00:07:36] Love and Society

Miriam Gunn: Yeah, I was thinking about what you’re talking about is true love, un unselfish love, and I feel like modern society, western society has sexualized everything to where it’s, it’s made it very difficult for people to say, I love you, and know what you mean and not question, and what, well, what are you saying?

And [00:08:00] whatever.

And this notion of unconditional regard, I a, a true heartfelt, “I love you” is an a simple way to say, I accept you. I want you in my presence. I see the value you bring on the planet just by the human that you are.

It’s like so many things wrapped up and you know our brains are full of mirror neurons and if you’re, I can even have this happen through the Zoom screen, but when you’re present with someone and you say something like that, it reaches deep in them and their brain responds.

It’s why, you know, when you say, I love you, most of the time people say, I love you back in a genuine way.

Their brain is responding in their heart and their soul. It’s such a huge package. And what I, what I hear you doing both of you, [00:09:00] and it’s encouraging me to do this more, is you’re sort of like, I don’t like these crappy rules that we’ve been handed by society that we’ve grown up in.

And I’m gonna change ’em and I’m gonna choose to be maybe vulnerable or this is in air quotes, but like soft.

I’m gonna choose to extend to the other person the fact that they have meaning to me.

Saying “I Love You”

Those are some of the things that I’ve been thinking about as you guys have been talking and how healthy and healing it is for them and for you, like Cal, I’m thinking about your parents and going, what are they thinking when you’re saying this semi out of the blue?

I bet they get a teeny bit uncomfortable also. They love it.

Yeah,

Callum Wilson: they didn’t, yeah. I, I, I, I think I just used to say bye. Like, I see you soon and, and probably in the last couple of like the year, last year or so, I’ve said I love you a lot more int it. [00:10:00] And I, I feel I’m like, oh, you know, saying that to my dad, like, I would say it previously, but not every single time that Yeah, I, I expect that they do feel something.

I think it’s important as well because, you know, every time we say bye to someone, it really could be the last time, so, You know, so many people regret not having let you know the thing, the thing that I think if I, if I was to die tomorrow, what would I need to do to feel fulfilled today? And it probably would be to let people know that I love them.

That would be it. If I had to do one thing, let people know that I love them. So why am I not doing that? Yeah. Okay.

Miriam Gunn: That’s so good. I had an experience about 15 years ago where I really thought I was gonna die. Like really, honestly. And I went through the huge, like, okay, if I die, do I, is there anything on left?

Having Conversations

And there were actually two people I needed to have conversations with and I didn’t die, obviously. And I did have [00:11:00] those conversations and it really put into me this space of live every moment as though it might be your last. I’m grateful to that moment in my life because it changed the way I live.

And my kids and other people who I. Care about. We, we always end conversations with, I love you.

But there was this funny influencer that my kids were watching and exposed me to, and he would always say, love you so much, bye. And they started doing it. And after a while, and I did it too, we all were doing it. And after a while I said, Hey, I actually wanna stop doing that because I actually do love you.

And the way we’re saying it sounds sarcastic and it doesn’t reach into me the same way.

They’re like, you’re right. So now we just say, love you. I so important.

Elaine Lajuenesse: Hmm.

Yeah. Because that’s the risk, huh? So, so the risk is to go on auto automatic [00:12:00] pilot. Mm-hmm. Just a force of habit. I’m gonna say I love you because that’s what I do.

So the intention is critical.

[00:12:13] Intentional Love

Callum Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it probably doesn’t and as you said that Elaine, I was thinking like quite often those moments of feeling, that deep connection of love actually isn’t at the end. It’s during like a, a meeting with someone. So potentially like the most authentic time, you could say it might be halfway through, you know?

Mm-hmm. Maybe, yeah, maybe, maybe it is a bit a piloty to leave it to the end.

Elaine Lajuenesse: But I’m wondering something Callum, because you know, I, I have lots of, I grew up surrounded by men or boys at a time when now is it true that it’s harder for men to have real conversation?[00:13:00]

Callum Wilson: What than, than women? Yeah. I think that’d probably be, Like generally probably quite right. Like if I was, I mean, I haven’t been a female in a female conversation, so to speak, but like listening into my girlfriend and, and my mom, and although women who talk to other women, they bare themselves more vulnerably more often it seems.

And there is this, this feeling of like wanting to look strong. I’ve always been quite

as long as physically I felt strong, like I was always okay with like opening up and being vulnerable. I think we’ve all got. We all, I dunno. I guess within my social groups, a lot of people would come to me with big, like this type of thing. So, but there is, yeah, I definitely think men really struggle. I a hundred percent.

And it’s, it’s just that wanting to look strong.

Looking Strong

Elaine Lajuenesse: Really. [00:14:00] Yeah. I’m asking because I have lots of male friends who would come and tell me and, and, and I will talk, I’ll take my brothers. I have three brothers. Yeah. And they come to me with certain stuff, with, you know, women and stuff, and I’m thinking, why are you talking to me and why are you not talking to your brothers?

Like, yeah. What’s my lived experience to help you here?

Callum Wilson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I’ve got, I’ve got friends that I’ve been, you know, I, I, I’ve known them for 20 years and like a few of them we’re in our late twenties and I’m like, I don’t, I don’t really know you like I do and I don’t. There’s this part of you that you don’t show me.

And then recently I’ve been seeing more and more of it, and I’m like, oh, wow. Because there’s some people in my, in males in my life and I was like, they’re just kind of robots, but I know they’re not, but they’re only showing me that side. So but I think that, you know, men, male [00:15:00] suicide rates are, are higher.

Well, I actually, let’s, that could be for other reasons, but I think men do struggle, you know, with, you know, one of our biggest threats to ourselves in the western world, especially as men is ourselves. And that has to be something to do with deep sadness and my experience of opening up as it lets a lot of sadness out.

Mm-hmm. I, I still really struggle to cry, but I’d love to cry. Sometimes I’m like, come on, let yourself cry. But it’s so hard,

Elaine Lajuenesse: like, have you seen the movie The Holidays?

Opening Up

Callum Wilson: Yeah. I’m like, sometimes I’m sitting there and I’m like, right, yeah. There’s something, there’s something sad in there. There’s something that needs to come out and I’ll be like, nah, it’s not happening.

Yeah. So yeah, it’s, it’s tough because obviously like, you know, I’m just talking really generally I’m, and, and I suppose it is just a tiny bit of average difference that makes a big difference on the edges. Mm-hmm. So from what I can tell, I do know a [00:16:00] lot of men that open up to women more than other men.

That’s probably something that, that resonates with your experience, I suppose.

Elaine Lajuenesse: Yeah.

You know what, the more you talk, the more I realize the real assign. Like you’re a little bit of I never cry either. Yeah. I almost wear it as a badge of honor. Yeah. Which was really sad. Uhhuh, I’m working on it. What about you here, Miriam?

Miriam Gunn: Wow. I think all sorts of things. All sorts of things. I, I wish I knew men from quite a few other cultures. I wish we had some other people in our group on this call for this particular question, because I don’t think it’s the same everywhere. But I do really resonate with what you’re talking about.

Crying

Both of you and I, I wonder, I know, I know two men who think their ability to weep is a strength. Like, they see that [00:17:00] as “I’m strong enough and secure enough that I can cry” and they have access to that place in them. Which is remarkable in a, in a place where, you know, I think a lot of young boys are told, don’t be a crybaby, be a man.

Tough, be tough. You know, stuff like that where little girls who fall are scooped up and, oh, are you okay? And what happened? And let me kiss it better. And, you know, there’s an acculturation that happens.

But I think I, I think Latin cultures might be more open with that space, you know, whether it’s South American or Spanish

[00:17:39] Love in Cultures

Callum Wilson: Yeah. When I lived in France which is sort of got its parts of Latin There’s, there’s threads of it anyhow, especially in, in the South. And the guys were more, way, way more emotional than British guys, like British cultures mm-hmm.

Were pretty held back, I think. Mm-hmm. But [00:18:00] the guys would cry at training and stuff. I’m like, what is going on here?

Partly because I was just like, why are they so emotional about it? But I think as well, I mean, I consider like it de, you know, a lot, I, I suppose men and, and Miriam, you, you’d probably know that potentially the most about this, but like the, the anger is often a secondary emotion.

There’s something that precedes that. And when I consider how many angry men that I know, including myself at times, but you know, I see it all, I see a lot of angry men that there must be. There must be that’s come after a sadness or, or, and a negative emotion, let’s say. So there is that emotion there.

It’s just that it gets built up and then expressed instead of in tears, it gets expressed in anger. Mm. I think anger probably doesn’t, it doesn’t often my experience of crying and I, I have cried a hundred percent, [00:19:00] but is like, it is really like, lets everything out. Whereas anger tends to just stay in me until I make a big mistake with the anger, and then I’m like, that was, that was stupid.

Emotional Skillsets

So yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. There’s some experiences I found that, that being someone that doesn’t cry much I ki I’ve, I’ve stood up to do speeches at funerals and cannot do it. I’ll weep. I’ll weep a weep. My brother who’s probably like, He’s very, very strong guy, but like in a kind, much, much kinder way than me.

Like he’s very soft and calm. He, he can, he can handle those situations in ways that I can’t. So it’s almost like my lack of ability to be soft in other areas at previously in life, I think I’m probably a bit better now, but I mean, I think his ability to express himself more allows him to actually do really tough emotional stuff better than me occasion.

Yeah,

Miriam Gunn: I, I think that these [00:20:00] are skillsets we never think of- oh, your ability to feel emotion or express, express emotion is a skillset, but it is. And I used to, this was years and years ago. I used to lead court- ordered domestic violence therapy groups. And those guys, I, I grew to just care for each of them so much.

You could see the hurt little boy in them. And it was exactly as you mentioned, Cal, you know, the anger was a secondary emotion, and underneath it was sadness or fear or regret. Embarrassment. All, I mean, all sorts of emotions. Like there was this kaleidoscope or rainbow of emotions that got turned into only one thing.

Talk About Emotions

It was like, you know, if the only thing you’ve got is a hammer, all your world looks like a nail. And that’s how it played out. And what you’re describing with your brother, you know, he just, he [00:21:00] a, he’s a different person, but b, he acquired a different set of tools and he handles them differently.

I have the flip problem where I was raised in a household that was full of anger and so I don’t express anger ever. And people are like, oh my gosh, what makes you really angry? I’m like, I don’t know. I don’t get angry. I just, I mean the, the, if I get super, super angry- years ago, it might make me cry.

I just get silent. It’s like, you know, those like anenomes in the ocean, you touch ’em and they just go, that’s like my response to that sort of thing.

So this is a fun and interesting discussion about these emotions. Obviously if you were to say, I mean, my family knows well enough, the quieter I am, the angrier I am, and they’ll just go, whoa, she is losing it.

Because I’m just,

Elaine Lajuenesse: yeah. [00:22:00]

Callum Wilson: Elaine, how about, how about you? Any thoughts going on?

[00:22:05] Other Emotions

Elaine Lajuenesse: Yeah, I think there’s, there’s so much common le live experience here. Mm-hmm. Because I’m like Miriam. When I am really angry, I totally clammed out. At the same time, I have lots of energy. And so I will go and walk very fast or do something like just to get the energy out of me.

I also know that any decision I’ve made in under the anger is, was a really bad decision. So, so I’ve learned to kind of try to take a distance. Yeah. It’s a, it’s interesting, eh, because you, you, you don’t, you meet stranger, like we are strangers I’ve met maybe four months ago, and then just when you scratch a surface, there’s so much [00:23:00] commonality between all of us.

Hmm. It’s fascinating to me.

Callum Wilson: Yeah. So this is something happened for me. I realize, so I keep referring to like an old version myself, but before I got  the truth is I don’t think I really knew who I was. I was talking about having the courage to be myself, but I didn’t have the kind of knowledge around what is the survivor like, the egoic part of me that is, is fueling the frustration, the sadness, the anger, and what is the real version of me.

And so for years it was just like this really reactive state. When I refer back to, I didn’t used to, it’s because I was just constantly in an egoic reactive state with everything. And, and that was anger. But quite often manifested as anger.

But actually like [00:24:00] now when I feel anger, and we talked about it on our last call, like, you know, that framework that I said, I go,

oh, have I not accepted myself?

Better Version of You

Have I not believed in others? Have I not contributed? Have I just not had the courage to say what I think?

And I can suddenly find the real, well, the, the, the higher, the better version of myself and detach from the little, the little boy who acts out of fear and all those things. But now I can, now I kind of understand that I’m this, I’m the secondary voice, the responder.

It all feels a lot easier than it did, but I didn’t understand what was going on in my head before. It was just that first voice that’s like react, react, react, react, whatever that means. Whether that means like people please, or whether it means be angry, whatever it was, I didn’t, I don’t really understand why and like who it was coming from, whether it was coming from my head or from my heart.

And now I know that my heart is abundant [00:25:00] and all the decisions that come from the best version of me are basically with like love and understanding probably right? But all of the versions that come from here, They’re, they’re very reactive and sometimes they’re really nice, but it’s quite often they’re, they’re angry and stuff like that.

So think in the last few years, like I’ve got emotionally, like you talking about Miriam, my brother, having different skillset set now that I can find myself, like the best, the real of me, in my essence, I, I feel like way less angry and I don’t even need to have to handle the anger in some ways cuz I’m like, oh, that’s, that’s just that little boy.

Do you know what I mean?

Elaine Lajuenesse: Feel like I, it feels like you’re starting to love yourself Callum.

[00:25:46] Love Yourself

Callum Wilson: Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess so because yeah, I guess so. A few months ago I was like, I accept myself. I dunno if I love myself, but now, because the way I look at it is like, I love you guys. I love [00:26:00] Lucy, my partner.

I love my mom and dad. I kind of love everyone. So, and I think I am part of everyone, so I ki I kind of have to love myself.

I also understand like the versions of me that once were, and I understand they’re just doing their best. I feel like a massive compassion to the angry guy or the, yeah, the defensive guy or the guy that didn’t quite, wasn’t quite himself in his rugby career.

It’s not like I don’t regret it. I, it got me here to be able to have this great conversation mm-hmm. With you guys. It got me to be on the program that we’re all on. It got me to coaching, so I love all of it. Yeah. Yeah. The answer is, Yes, I do.

Miriam Gunn: Oh, that’s so good.

This is so good. And I’m really glad you bounced back and said it’s not so much that I didn’t have the courage, I didn’t have the knowledge because when you were talking about this, you know, 40 minutes ago, [00:27:00] I was like, you have more courage than anybody I know.

You’re facing stuff head on. It had nothing to do with courage. You didn’t know any better. And I also appreciate your compassion for that earlier version of you. He was just doing the best he could. And sometimes I look at decisions in my life and I go, Ugh. And then I have to wait, say, hang on a second.

Doing Your Best

You were doing the best you could with what you had, with the resources you had and the knowledge you had, and. You know, I was doing the best I could with what I had at the time.

And Elaine, I assumed the same of you as well.

Each of us as people, you know, nobody. If one of my professors in my therapy space, I was arguing with her about somebody doing something and why were they doing this and this didn’t make any sense and blah blah.

And she really stopped [00:28:00] me and said, Miriam, people’s actions, if you understood their internal context, they always make sense. You know, which even goes back to what you said earlier, Cal, about, you know, people doing evil things.

I also did some work with juvenile sex offenders, and when you understood their context, Hmm.

It made sense. Didn’t mean it was the right thing to do. It didn’t mean there wasn’t a wake of destruction that came from it, but you could see how their brain got from here to here to here, you know?

And this business of Elaine, what you said, Cal, it seems like you love yourself. And then Call, you say, well, I accept myself.

I’m beginning to love myself. Yeah. Actually, I guess I love myself.

Goodness and Joy

Look at the goodness that ripples out from that and the joy,

Callum Wilson: my thought when I got asked the question, but I was like, am I about, I’ll tell you what, because if you [00:29:00] asked me and this wasn’t recorded, I’d be like, yeah, I love myself. But I thought about people.

I thought this was recorded. And it was only as I caught myself realizing I was holding myself back cuz people would hear this, I was like, I’ve just gotta say it cause it’s true. So yeah, I, I, I think that actually I kind of do, but I just, I yeah, sort of, and this is actually to the point where I agree with you that I did my best and, and we all probably did.

And we can be compassionate.

[00:29:27] Courage

Callum Wilson: But I, and when I speak about courage, the courage is framed through the courage to be disliked by the people and the courage to fail by being myself as well. I, I see. Yeah. That’s, that’s why I lack courage. I, I lack the courage for someone to tell me they didn’t like me. I let the courage to throw a pass or do something in a game of rugby that might result in bad things.

And I, I know how naturally human that is, because if you’re not like social death leads to biological death. Failure could [00:30:00] lead to people starving.

I, I understand it, but I do know deep down that there was a voice in me that was like, no, this isn’t right. Say what you think. And I, and I, I do. So yeah. I, whilst I understand why I do, I do, I do really think that there was, like, there was still choices going on is, and I, I did make those choices.

Elaine Lajuenesse: And yet you made the courageous one once again.

Callum Wilson: Yeah. Oh, just now I was saying I love myself. Yeah, yeah,

Miriam Gunn: yeah.

You know, this is such a good phrase. There were still choices going on. I, I appreciate the tension between giving your previous self not a pass, but grace, you know? Mm-hmm. I, my previous self was doing the best that he could.

In my case, my previous self was doing the best that she could, and yet there were a series of choices I made. That led to a series of sadnesses, [00:31:00] and I could have made different choices, and I didn’t.

Making Different Choices

And you know, Elaine, you were saying, could my 24 year old self have done that? I don’t know if my 24 year old self could have, I’m standing and saying, could my 24 or 30 year old self have made those different choices?

And it’s sort of like, yes and no. I don’t know. It’s that, that’s one of those spaces where do I believe in myself to know if I could have, I would’ve, I would like to believe that I would’ve. So how do we hold ourselves accountable for those things and give ourselves compassion and grace, because Yeah, Cal, you didn’t have the courage for those various things you mentioned, but.

Had you had the courage, had it been within you, the skillset you would have, you just hadn’t learned it yet.

Elaine Lajuenesse: Okay. I wanna bring another [00:32:00] dimension here because, you know, we talk about this, but I, 16 year old was really brave. My 16 year old was really bold and, and, and that person made a, a lot of really good decision.

Timing

So at that time, for that period of time and, and based on the information they had, so like, I don’t think the, that per, that 16 year olds could have made the decision to be a coach at that time. Hmm.

But they made, they still made a lot of really, really good decision. Mm-hmm. They made the decision or carrier that I was, sorry, I thought I was gonna take, made the decision to save money.

They like all of these things. They made different type of decision and I’m, I’m a true believer that you do the things when the timing is right for you. Mm-hmm. And, and to ask like the version of 16 or [00:33:00] 24 to make this decision. It was not the right time.

Callum Wilson: Yeah. A lot of what I’m experiencing in my life now wouldn’t have made sense to me at, at that time I was just gonna, I brought my phone up not to, I, I wanted to read something that I, I wrote that I sometimes share with people that probably explains how I feel about that younger version of myself.

So it’s about like whether we actually make mistakes or whether we just get information. Basically

[00:33:32] Failure

Callum Wilson: I said we’re, we’re able to make the decisions we currently can because of the information we got from the past. Failure gave us the information to be who we are. Today. When I critique, critique my mistakes, number one, I’m looking at the, in, at the situation with information and clarity that I didn’t have before, but I’ve got new information that I didn’t have then number two, I’m assuming that person back then is me. It’s not. I’m me now, not today, a week, month, a year ago. I’m not a 16 year old that made mistakes. I’m not the 20 year old that made mistakes. I’m not the 30 year old that didn’t have the courage. I’m me right now. Number three, the actions from previous versions of me mean I now have the information to make better decisions.

That’s a massive one for me. Number four, the mistakes I make now are going to give me the information. So in my current state, the mistakes that I make today are gonna give me the information to make even better decisions in the future. It allows me to relax into difficult times, especially knowing I can handle the worst outcome.

And number five given I always did my best and I’m in a good place now, I can’t critique form a versions of myself, Ned negatively actually. I feel compassionate and love.  I’ve since added a six, which is that [00:35:00] like I couldn’t look at all of that and then apply that to other people and just go, you are just getting the information that you need to get to where you need to be.

You are exactly where you need to be. Those mistakes are exactly the mistakes you need to make.

Self Compassion

Da dunno if that I, I sometimes copy and paste that to clients just as a like little checklist so that you’re not, so that you can find that compassionate self compassionate.

Again,

Elaine Lajuenesse: I love this and it reminds me what my, my husband says about his children.

Like, you know, your raise children to have the same value that you have, but they don’t have the same experience, so how can they be? Yeah.

Miriam Gunn: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well that sounds like something that needs to be on a poster. Yeah. That’s a good, that’s a good and wise saying, Cal, what you just read feels to me like such a kindness to your younger self.

You know? Mm-hmm.

Callum Wilson: Yeah. Have you guys had much of that [00:36:00] coaching where you are like, talk to your younger self? Not

Elaine Lajuenesse: much.

Miriam Gunn: I’m, I’m really trained in something called Internal family Systems, and so I, I do it with people all the time and it’s so powerful. Mm. So, so powerful and all of my work with other people in that way I think taught me how to do it for younger Miriam.

Mm. Because she really was just doing the best she could.

Listen to Yourself

Callum Wilson: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a really weird one. I was like talking to my younger self in my classroom and I was like young and he was like really angry and misunderstanding and then he turned into like me, but before I had a beard and he’s kind of like, we are facing each other.

And I was like, I’m gonna win the fight, mate, but if we both hit each other, we’re both gonna hurt. I’m, you are gonna lose, but I’m, it’s not. And [00:37:00] we’re gonna have to keep doing that for the rest of our lives. And eventually sort of came to the agreement with him. I was like, look, I fucking really love that you stood up for me, but like, I’ve got this.

And he’s just like, thanks so much for like, recognizing that. And I said to him, what, what do you advise me to do now? And he goes, you know that you’ve got the right answers. Like, just listen to yourself. Don’t listen to me, but I’ll, I’ll be here, but like, you can, he basically, my younger self gave me permission to trust my intuition.

And then he turned into like, little, little boy again. It was, it was bizarre. I was lying on this sofa, like, what is going on as this coach took me forever, but it was like the best thing, the best, probably the best thing I’ve ever done really in terms of coaching because I, I just totally like, Yeah, that self-compassion just allowed, he, my ego kind of released me in some ways.

[00:38:00] Past Experience

Miriam Gunn: Ah, I love that so much. I have an example that’s radically different, but similar in form. So I have a lot of medical trauma in my background and I went into the ear, nose and throat person to just have them look in my throat and tell me something. And she said, yeah, okay, we’re gonna inject you with this and then we’re gonna spray this, and then we’re gonna do this scope.

And I was like, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I just came in to have a conversation and I just want you to look in my throat. She said, no, I can’t see your vocal cords without this, that, or the other. And my younger self, who is the one who went through the medical trauma, was freaking out. And I knew my present day self could muscle her into it.

I mean, I’m paying who knows how much for this appointment, and this is the thing that needs to happen. And an earlier version of myself would’ve said, suck it up Miriam, and just do it. You can do it. It’s fine. But I’ve learned to be kind to [00:39:00] that earlier version of myself who was traumatized in all the medical things.

And I said to the doctor, Hey, I’m willing to come back and do this test, but there’s a piece of me that’s traumatized by medical things. And while I could make myself do it, I’m not going to, because that’s not kind to that version of myself. What I told her is, we were coming in and having a conversation, so that’s what I’ll do today.

Honoring Yourself

And she was like, okay. And then she charged me, I think $257 for, for that like five minute thing. But it didn’t matter. I walked out of there triumphant because I didn’t let somebody else’s expectation of what needed to happen. I didn’t let that force me into bullying me. You know? Mm-hmm. I honored the me who went through that other stuff, and boy, I’ll tell you, I’m super glad I did because then two weeks later I had to do a whole bunch [00:40:00] of medical tests and I was like, you got this.

You’re fine. Just breathe. Mm-hmm. No, I wasn’t like anxious, like I wasn’t anxious. I was present with that other part of me that needed me to be present, which is Cal, what I heard you doing is you had this conversation with this younger version of you who like showed up and you had a conversation and you showed up and you were kind, but firm didn’t let him take over.

And you had I don’t know, it was a good parental conversation. You were a good parent to him and you gave him what he needed and he responded.

Elaine Lajuenesse: Yeah. Yeah. So, so it sounds like it, it’s a triumphant notes to finish this conversation.

Callum Wilson: Yeah, I, I just, okay. I just want last one, last bit cuz I think this wrap up quite nice.

Love is the Answer

Like what I figured when I gave myself, like in the world, if I look at the [00:41:00] world, I don’t think war and hate and fighting is probably the answer to happiness. I think that love is probably the answer externally. We’re like, if I’m just part of nature and nature’s answer should is love, then how could I not treat myself the same so I could even be at war with myself, which is not what I think’s best for everyone else.

Or I can like be in love with myself and that be the, you know, do you understand what I mean? It’s kind of like the same answer for everyone else, has to be the same answer for me, cuz I am one with everyone else. So love is the answer.

Elaine Lajuenesse: That sounds like a great way. That’s a good way to end.

Callum Wilson: Oh, guys, I really, really appreciate you coming on.

Miriam Gunn: This was a really uplifting conversation. That’s great. I appreciate both of you guys are so amazing.

Elaine Lajuenesse: I have to say. I’m,

Callum Wilson: that was awesome. Thank you so much.

Elaine Lajuenesse: Okay. I’ll have good rest of the day guys.

Miriam Gunn: [00:42:00] Bye. Absolutely. Bye-bye.

 

End Credits

 

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