Non-Profit Leadership with Kendra Penry

[00:00:00] Miriam: Great. Today. I am so happy to have Kendra Penry with me, and I’m gonna let you introduce yourself. You have a really cool job description.

[00:00:11] Stokes Nature Center

[00:00:11] Kendra: Sure. So I, as Miriam said, my name’s Kendra Penry and I am the executive director at. Stokes Nature Center in Logan, Utah.

[00:00:21] Stokes Nature Center exists to make nature education an outdoor exploration possible for all people.

[00:00:27] Because we believe that through education we can all become better stewards of the natural world. My job takes on. Any number of facets depending on the day.

[00:00:39] But for instance, today I’m talking about open access to research with professors at Utah State University. But I also do our finances and our IT department and our benefits and our human resources and everything to keep the organization going.

[00:00:57] We know that nature is essential to our physical and our mental health, and we don’t care for that, which we don’t know. So we’re working to make sure everyone can know nature and therefore care for it better.

[00:01:10] Miriam: Oh, well spoken. So anybody who lives in northern Utah in the Logan area has been to the Stokes Nature Center, I would think.

[00:01:18] And I mean, my kids grew up going there. I loved that it was there. I love what you’re doing. What you were describing, you just described a whole bunch of skill sets and anybody, half of my audience are entrepreneurs and solopreneurs and any of those solopreneurs know exactly what you’re talking about.

[00:01:39] Non-Profits

[00:01:39] Miriam: They wear a bunch of hats. They do a ton of different things. Can you describe for me just a little bit of your history of how you got involved working with non-profits? And we’ll start there and then we’ll go from there.

[00:01:53] Kendra: I started with non-profits when I was a teenager. I have always felt that I wanted my job to be more about.

[00:02:01] Service than about profit. And I, that’s not the same for everyone. I completely understand that. But for me, that’s just where I fit. I attempted to work for the government for a while because I do have a masters in international affairs and that was not a good fit. And I’ve worked in international business for a large corporation and I also did not enjoy it.

[00:02:24] And nonprofits is just where I feel at home where I feel like I can. A difference in my community and that I have value in what I’m doing beyond just bringing home a paycheck. I got there by just piecemealing it together. I’ve slowly in my head, been working backwards, essentially in finding what I’m passionate about.

[00:02:48] I’ve done everything from managing volunteers at a nonprofit to creating programming to prevent human trafficking to fighting for food security. But in reality, I as an individual feel most fulfilled when I am creating solutions, not raising awareness. I get the value in that and I very much respect the people that do it.

[00:03:15] But for me, I need to know that what I’m doing is actually solving the issue.

Putting Skills to Work

[00:03:19] And everything right now in our world on, in our planet is coming back to this issue of climate change. It is driving food insecurity, it is driving immigration, It is driving all sorts of issues. And so if we want to address the bigger ones, we’ve gotta start at the beginning.

[00:03:35] And so that’s how I landed. Stokes Nature Center was that I had these skill sets where I had worked every facet of a non-profit from the ground up. And what they needed was an administrator, executive director. Sounds cool. But I don’t do the programming side, which is the fun side. I do the administrative work, and that is what I know and I’ve done it from every angle.

[00:03:59] And so it was a perfect fit to not only take these skills that I have, but to put it to work at an organization. Works to address the issue that is most at the heart of what I feel is important right now. And it was also a perfect timing fit in that I needed a job and it was available, but I have loved it.

[00:04:20] But it is one of those things where it’s, I know this may not be my final landing place either. It’s. And that’s a beautiful thing in the nonprofit world. You can slowly evolve as you find what you’re good at and what you’re passionate about.

[00:04:33] Values

[00:04:33] Miriam: Sure. So, because you did some work with some governmental agencies and some corporate agencies, and now this sort of space, can you compare and contrast some of the differences?

[00:04:44] Kendra: Sure. So your values are very different at each of them. In corporations, the value is profit, it is your shareholders, and that is the design of them. They are supposed to be doing that. They also tend to focus more on the, a managerial style that is top down, whereas non-profits have to be more collaborative and mainly because everybody’s doing multiple jobs.

[00:05:09] So we all kind of have to work together. And some people fit into one of those better than another. There’s no one right answer there. It’s just a different model of doing business.

[00:05:22] Government on the other hand, In similar ways to nonprofit built around service, it is intended to serve people. But of course there are constraints there that nonprofits don’t necessarily have in terms of your, your political climate changes depending on who’s in charge.

[00:05:39] Whereas a nonprofit has a dedicated mission that this is what we’re always doing no matter what’s happening around us. But for me, I feel like the non-profit is where. Kinda, it’s the boots on the ground of making all of that happen because we we’re still a business. Absolutely. We’re called a nonprofit, but I have to run it the same as any other business.

Finances in Non-Profits

[00:06:02] We still have to have staff and we have to prevent turnover, and we have to deal with. Filing 9 41 s. It’s the same as any other business. It’s just in the end, the money that I make is intended to go back into serving my community as opposed to purchasing stock or paying shareholders. So it’s that end goal is what shifts.

[00:06:24] But in reality we are very similar. But we just do the same thing with a lot less money .

[00:06:31] Miriam: Sure, sure. No, that makes sense. I remember the first time. I understood a little bit about how a nonprofit worked, and I was really surprised because they were making a profit. Yeah. And as you said, the profit is intended to go back into the workings of the organization and furthering the mission.

[00:06:49] It is an interesting perspective and it draws a little bit of a different kind of person. The kind of people who like to work for non-profits are a little bit different in their perspective than the kind of people who like to work for “for profit” type of organizations. Neither right or wrong, both just, you know, utilizing people’s unique gift giftings and skill sets.

[00:07:13] What is something that as you kind of watched yourself progressing from this to that, You had to hit some spaces, whether they, they might have been like something negative happened or something positive happened that sort of shuttled you into the next version of yourself. Can you tell a couple stories about those kind of transitions?

[00:07:37] Leadership Transition

[00:07:37] Kendra: Sure. So one of the primary transitions that stands out for me in the end was very positive, but at the time felt very negative.

[00:07:46] I had a situation at a nonprofit where, Did not have good leadership. And it framed who I am as a leader.

[00:07:55] I think a lot of us look at needing a mentor to shape us positively, but we also lose sight of the fact that negative experiences are equally valuable.

[00:08:03] And this one definitely was because I felt like the person leading the organization was making it more about themselves than about the. And a lot of us doing the actual work, were not getting credit for what we did. And we also didn’t understand things. There was not that sense of transparency within the organization that we needed to know.

[00:08:24] Even just, you know, are our finances okay? We don’t know. Like should I be finding more donors? I don’t know. There was too much of siloing and too much of one person.

[00:08:35] And it shaped me wanting to be a leader so that I could be the opposite. So that I could really help empower staff to do what they do well by making sure they don’t have to worry about things, that they know them, but they don’t have to worry about them.

Serve the Staff

[00:08:51] And also to know that I, as a leader, my first job is to serve my staff. Not the community. My staff’s job is to serve the community, but by supporting my staff, they are better able to do their job. And that is a hard lesson for a lot of leaders to learn, especially in the non-profit world, because we get into it because we’re passionate about it and we want to keep doing that.

[00:09:17] And when you transition into the leadership role, it shifts everything, because your goal is not to create a dynamic program. Your goal is to keep your staff happy, so they create a dynamic program. And that’s what I wanted. That’s what I learned was that there were so many people being lost. There was so much turnover in the nonprofit world, more so than in most other industries.

[00:09:40] And I wanted to do what I could to reduce that. So we stopped losing so much talent and so much passion for our work.

[00:09:49] But I only knew that once I saw the opposite and I actually left that job because of the leadership there. And I didn’t want someone else to, to feel that same way.

[00:10:00] And then at the same time, I’ve had a great experience with the very next job I went to.

Leadership for Staff

[00:10:06] I had so much freedom to do my job. They trusted me that I knew what to do, and I, as long as I did it well, they weren’t gonna micromanage me. And it just, it was a whole new world for me. Being an adult, essentially, but also being in charge of what happened within my territory and feeling like I could create things and be proud of them and help transform the community around me and that the leadership behind me.

[00:10:40] Supported me and they liked what I was doing and trusted me. And that I hope also translates to my staff now. And that I have tried to turn that into a piece of my leadership as well. That I trust them, that I let them know that as long as you’re doing your job and you’re doing it very well, that I trust you and you, if you are not hearing from me, then you are doing a great job

[00:11:06] Internal Motivation

[00:11:06] Miriam: It seems like, and you would have to correct me if I’m wrong Nonprofits need people who are internally motivated and kind of self-directed.

[00:11:17] Is that, is that what you would say?

[00:11:20] Kendra: Absolutely. You have to be internally motivated because nonprofits can’t necessarily give you the external motive motivation that other companies have and. It’s unfortunate that that’s what’s happened in the world, that a lot of people take for granted non-profit work and believe that we shouldn’t be paid well because we love what we do, , and, and it is part of my crusade to make sure that people understand that that is not in fact true, that we do deserve to be paid well.

[00:11:51] We have to run our organization the same as any other business. And to attract talent, I need to be able to pay well and to provide benefits. And we love what we do. It’s not an OR. And hopefully we can start shifting that. But for now, until that does shift, it requires internal motivation to be able to keep going when you see someone with your same degree ma making five times as much money because they win a different route.

[00:12:18] And it seems like their life is easier. Whether or not it really is would be. Story, but it seems that way and it can draw you into a different way of working. If you don’t have that internal motivation to be doing it. It does definitely require a passion for your community and for, for what you do.

Keep the Passion

[00:12:39] Because it’s, it’s hard. It’s really easy to get pessimistic in the nonprofit world because our, what is what we’re doing really making a difference. I, it’s hard to know. And it’s even harder to prove a negative if you’re in a nonprofit world that’s working to prevent something. You can’t prove whether you’re doing it or not, if you’re doing it well,

[00:13:01] Yeah. So you can really easily lose the passion for what you’re doing unless you are, you are internally motivated and also, Keeping yourself mentally and, and physically healthy along the way.

[00:13:14] Miriam: Yeah, I can see how there would be some spaces that were pretty unique to what you do that maybe the rest of the world doesn’t deal with.

[00:13:24] I was talking with someone the other day and we were talking about I, I think we were talking about some charities that are listed on Charity Navigator. We always check out charities just to make sure that, you know, the vast majority of the donation is going to serve the thing, not just going into, you know, whatever, fundraising or whatnot.

Other Salaries

[00:13:44] And in this particular one, this. CEO was making six figures and it started an interesting question of, is that okay or not okay? And the person I was talking with said, Well, I don’t think that’s good stewardship. I don’t think that’s okay. And the, And I was saying, Well, you know, if you look at this person’s salary in reference to anyone else at this level in business, they’re taking a pretty low salary.

[00:14:09] But I understand how the public. I understand where the confusion comes from because when people donate their a hundred dollars or their $200 and then they see someone getting a six figure salary, then they’re like, Ah, is this good use of my money or resources? Anyway? It is until you have walked in those shoes and understood.

[00:14:34] I think it’s easy to judge people for sure.

[00:14:37] Non-Profit Finances

[00:14:37] Kendra: Mm-hmm. , it’s a balance. Mm-hmm. and it is a, a very delicate balance. But we, if we want the programs that we’re offering to be high quality, then we have to have high quality staff and we have to be able to attract them away from so much other competition that pays well.

[00:14:55] And yes, we will always pay. Than a large corporation would. Absolutely. And there is some expectation there to that because we depend on donations and we want the money to go into programs too. Absolutely. But we need to pay our bills . Sure. In order to do the programs, we have to be able to have a place to live.

[00:15:17] So as there is this very fine line there. But I think there is a space for conversation to be sure that people providing services are paid fairly, not exorbitantly, but fairly for the work that they’re doing so that they can keep doing it.

[00:15:34] Miriam: Sure, absolutely. So you mentioned earlier in this list, Of nonprofits that you had spent time in.

[00:15:41] One of them was dealing with human trafficking. Do you mind if I ask a couple questions about that? Sure. Like what what was your role in that organization? What did you find rewarding? What caused you to switch to something else?

[00:15:58] Preventing Human Trafficking

[00:15:58] Kendra: Sure. So the organization works to raise awareness about human trafficking, and my job was as a program manager, and I developed programming that focused on preventing human trafficking among juveniles domestically.

[00:16:13] I also did research on trafficking in the area where I lived and I did a lot of our outreach to Faith Communi. And to schools to make sure people felt equipped to recognize the signs.

[00:16:27] I developed a training for the police department where I lived that was launched within their cadet Academy so that all up and coming police officers would be able to recognize it better and the differences between trafficking.

[00:16:41] Smuggling or trafficking and prostitution and various different things. And I loved the job because it is an issue that I feel we absolutely need to address. But the reason I left is because the driving motiva motivation for human trafficking is primarily poverty. If we are not addressing poverty, what I was doing was never gonna solve the problem.

Non-Profits Addressing Poverty

[00:17:07] I can raise awareness every single day for the next million years, and it doesn’t stop trafficking from happening. It still happens until we take a step back and focus on preventing victims and preventing perpetrators from happening in the first place. And that’s why I left is I wanted to get more onto the primary issue motivating the problem.

[00:17:28] And so I transitioned into an organization that works on addressing hunger and poverty because if we can solve those, we reduce the risk factors for people becoming victims of trafficking. So in many ways, I felt like I was just continuing the work. I was just going a step back to hopefully prevent the trauma from ever having to take place.

[00:17:49] Miriam: Sure makes so much sense. And boy, if you go down some of these rabbit holes, it gets pretty deep because poverty at some level can be caused by climate change and some of these other, I mean, you know, and so then you end up switching into that space. It’s all connected. We’re all part of one world and they, everything touches everything for sure.

[00:18:13] Recognizing Human Trafficking

[00:18:13] Miriam: Do you mind sharing a couple thoughts about How to recognize trafficking. I, I just think as long as we’ve got people listening, we might as well share, right? Yeah, sure.

[00:18:25] Kendra: So first of all, I will say that I will never forget, but the hotline to call if you recognize trafficking, is 8 8 8 37 37 8 8 8 , very easy number.

[00:18:34] But there are two primary types of trafficking. Sex trafficking and labor trafficking and sex trafficking tends to get a lot of attention, but labor trafficking is actually four times more common. And it appears in various ways between domestic servitude to Even magazine salespeople. Door to door was an interesting ar area of research that was happening while I was in the field.

[00:18:58] But then of course, sex trafficking. The primary definition is force fraud or coercion used to make someone work against their will. And signs that you look out for One of the trainings lately has been for flight attendants looking out for people not in possession of their own identification documents.

[00:19:17] That can be a very big sign or signal. The age of the person is very important. When we’re looking at sex trafficking, you’re looking at people under the age of 18. It does not matter what put them there. It doesn’t matter if they say they chose it. If they are under 18, then they are a victim of, of trafficking if they are being used for the purposes of sex or exploitation.

Review Your Purchases

[00:19:41] We also see within businesses here in the US there have been more than one case of large hotel or motel chains. Their cleaning crews are victims of human trafficking because they’re not being paid, and it is very common within our food systems. So migrant labor is very easily exploited in ways that.

[00:20:04] Pretty astounding giving that this is the year 2022.

[00:20:07] But what I like to tell people is what you can do is look at how you purchase things if it is an issue that is really important to you. Knowing how, to, knowing the company that you’re purchasing from and their ethical standards and treating their workers all the way down their supply chain, not just in their office.

[00:20:27] But including that they know who is picking your tomatoes and who is making your shirt, That is what you want to see. The Fair Trade Label, for instance, is certified trafficking and slave labor free. So that’s an easy, well, I won’t say easy, a simple way. To be able to fight trafficking is changing how you purchase, and that’s actually the number one impact that we as Americans can really have is changing how we purchase.

Keep Your Eyes Open

[00:20:54] Because that changes how companies do business. But you can just keep your eyes out when you’re traveling when you are in your own community, when you staying in a hotel, having conversations is one of the biggest things that you can do. Get to know the people that are cleaning your room or are serving you food or just knowing that it can be there, but also not seeing it everywhere.

[00:21:21] But if you do see the signs, then calling the number and reporting it it takes you to Polaris Project, which is a great nonprofit out of DC that runs the National Hotline for trafficking and they can report it to the local authorities to investigate it.

[00:21:35] Miriam: Thank you. I appreciate you talking about that.

[00:21:38] I think that these things go in waves as far as people’s awareness. and a lot of times people are saying, What can I do? This is such a big problem, whether it’s the trafficking thing or climate change, or whatever. The people are always saying, What can I do? So I appreciate that you gave some specific things.

[00:22:00] Effective Management

[00:22:00] Miriam: A couple other quick questions and then we’ll wrap it up. When, when you look at your development within the nonprofit sphere, what are some things you had to grow in, in terms of perspective?

[00:22:17] Kendra: So, well, one that I’ve already talked about is managing people, growing my perspective on what that means, like mm-hmm.

[00:22:24] how you manage people effectively. And in different ways cuz every person is very unique. And that required experiencing it. To be able to become the leader that I wanted to be, but also being li willing to listen when someone tells me something’s not working and not taking it personally. Being willing to change as necessary and really get to know the people I’m leading.

[00:22:54] But the other area I really had to grow in is the absolute basics, the things that I feel like we don’t learn enough of really in school such. QuickBooks, like, how do I manage my accounting books? How do I, you know, set up my webpage? Things that are very simple that I don’t have the money to call someone to come do for me.

[00:23:19] Mm-hmm. , sometimes that’s trial and error. , That is true, but it’s also a matter of my personal motivation to seek out the training and the education that I need to be better at it. Recognizing those things and not pretending like I know them, but being willing to admit that I don’t, and then take the steps to learn them.

Master Naturalist

[00:23:37] For instance, this year I’ve worked diligently to become what’s known as a master naturalist. Because while I don’t develop our programs, just my title in and of itself invites people to ask me questions, and I do not have a background in nature or the environment. And too many times my answer had to be, I don’t know, but I’ll figure it out.

[00:23:58] And so that was a piece that I felt was missing, and so I took it upon myself to find the classes that I need to be able to better serve my community. And that it’s a continuous process. Absolutely. I know there’s more that I need to learn and it will both be on the job, but also be a matter of recognizing where I feel inadequate and taking the steps to, to be better at it, and also ask for help as needed.

[00:24:27] Right. Something a lot of leaders don’t like to do, but being willing to do it and it doesn’t show weakness. It actually, in my opinion, is very much a strength to just say, I don’t know how to do this, but someone can teach me.

[00:24:40] Miriam: Yes. I would say right there, that is the basis of the high performing mindset.

[00:24:46] I don’t know, but I can figure it out. I don’t know, but I’m gonna ask someone. So good on you for like internalizing that space and saying, I don’t have to know everything I confident in my ability to learn. That’s what I heard you. Well done.

[00:25:03] Be More Respectful

[00:25:03] Miriam: Yes. What would you say, like if you could change anything about the public so far that from what you know, what , I wish I was the magic genie that could give you the wand, but what would you change?

[00:25:16] Yeah, what would you ask from people? Please do more of this or less of this.

[00:25:23] Kendra: I think I would ask people to please, please be more respectful in general. be, more respectful of, of each other, but also of the environment around us. And not because it’s pretty or we want it, but because it’s absolutely essential to us as human beings.

[00:25:44] Yeah. We need the planet, We need our environment. We are. As reliant on it as any other species on this planet, and respect is where it all comes from, and that also goes for each other and recognizing that. You know when I go off trail because I want a pretty picture, is that really beneficial to anyone or is it potentially causing harm so that the person coming after me doesn’t have the experience that I just had?

[00:26:15] Things like that, that are so simple, but I think we lose track of it because we’ve gotten into a mindset. of Just so much self focus and that is both, It’s a pendulum that has happened that we needed to be taking better care of ourselves. But now we’ve gone a bit too far and seen too much of focus on myself and not enough on other people.

Success for All

[00:26:38] So I think just asking for a bit more respect around us would, and, you know, for non-profits a bit more. Respect for each other that we are all working in this space. It’s not a zero sum game. I can succeed and so can someone else. And the same goes for the business world in respecting the choices that we make and other people around us to make sure that.

[00:27:03] You know, our, our supply chains are clean of, of slave labor. That’s a matter of respect too, of respecting all human beings wherever they find themselves in the world. Yeah, that’s what I would love to see more of. .

[00:27:16] What I would pro probably love to see less, less of is the pessimism that we’re seeing lately.

[00:27:23] A lot of us have gotten to this point. It feels like what I do is so small, so why bother doing it? And that is a really dangerous place to be. And yes, maybe my not watering my yard isn’t gonna save the great Salt Lake, but it doesn’t mean I stop doing it. It does mean that I do it and I do more. I advocate for the larger companies to start making the changes they need to make because that’s where real change happens.

[00:27:52] But it also doesn’t mean that I stop doing what I can.

[00:27:56] We Each Have an Influence

[00:27:56] Miriam: That feels like a mic drop moment. I don’t know that I can add too much more to that other than. Everybody has their pet thing that they feel good about. Like I know certain people are super good at picking up trash every time that they walk, but they have no problem flipping someone off who cuts ’em off at the, at the road, you know?

[00:28:18] Yes. And then you have other persons who would just bend over backwards to just help someone out, and they have no problem. Buying a hundred thousand bottles of bottled water. Like yes, we are these interesting mixes of I’m gonna make a positive difference in my world and I’m woefully unaware of the damage I’m causing in other areas.

[00:28:43] And so I love your focus on could we be a little less negative and also do what you can. And then take it one step further. So yes, go ahead and pick up the trash, and also please write this company and say, Thank you for putting your yogurt and glass jars because they can be recycled. And yes, stop watering your lawn in the middle of the day, in the middle of the summer, and also contact so and so and ask them to, you know, use fair trade with their clothing.

[00:29:15] Like there is more that we as individuals can do, but it takes a little bit of effort. It’s not Herculean, but it does take a little bit of effort

Vote

[00:29:25] There was a a time, I don’t know, it was probably in the spring where I was trying to write a company, at least one company each week, either thanking them for something they were doing or asking them to do something different.

[00:29:38] I have no idea if it makes any difference or not. But you get enough people doing that. Yeah, and it does. And somehow or other, we have to hold onto that space in US that says, Our individual effort does matter whether we can see it or not. Yes. That’s hard. I think that’s hard for people at times.

[00:29:59] It’s very hard, but I will also throw out there that one of the biggest things we can do is to vote.

[00:30:04] So it’s the right season right now, but it’s pretty much every year there’s an opportunity to vote on something and we have to keep letting our voice be heard, whether it is writing a letter. Voting for an elected official that believes the way you believe or calling up, you know, a company or, or a nonprofit and finding out how you can get involved.

[00:30:27] There is always something, and I know we all have different levels of time and, and energy to be able to do things but we can all find something that that makes a difference.

[00:30:37] Absolutely. What a great place to end. Kendra, thank you so much for your time today. And you know, I always end my podcast by saying, Now go be intentional.

[00:30:48] And I’m gonna just say it twice. You know, they’ll, it’ll come in the outro, but right now I’m gonna say to our audience, do something to make your world a better place today, intentionally.

End Credits

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Building Success From the Bottom with Kevin Mansouri

[00:00:00] Miriam: All right. I’m so happy to have Kevin Mansouri here. He’s the owner of Mortgage Solutions and I’m gonna let him tell a little bit more about what he does, and then we’re gonna get into this conversation about serving people and how to make a difference as a business owner.

[00:00:19] Kevin: Great. I’m happy to be here. Thank you for having me. success success success success

[00:00:23] Mortgage Solutions

[00:00:23] Miriam: So why don’t you talk a little bit about you know, what your company does, and then we’ll get into the finer details

[00:00:31] Kevin: of it. Sounds great. So I’m the owner and operator of Mortgage Solutions llc, and I started in 1998, believe it or not. I’ve got some gray hairs from it and I’ve just been serving the Utah community ever since.

[00:00:47] Miriam: Right. So what does Mortgage Broker do?

Three Environments of Mortgage Lending

[00:00:50] Kevin: Okay, so there’s really three environments of mortgage lending. There is a bank like Wells Fargo or Chase. There’s something called a mortgage banker. Which I can get into in a bit. And then there’s a mortgage broker. I have worked in all three capacities over my career and I’ve found a mortgage broker can service its clients the best.

[00:01:12] Really it’s like an insurance broker. If you’ve ever heard of Bear River or Auto Owners or some of those carriers, you work with one agent, but then they have several different sources. Of places to get your insurance. In the mortgage world, it’s the same thing. We have several different sources to get the funding.

[00:01:31] So for that reason, I feel that it gives our clients the best rates, the best opportunities, the most access to programs, but with one local person that they can trust.

[00:01:40] Miriam: Yeah, like a live human. They can, they can talk to a live human. Yes. Which is what, what we all want to do these days at least I do, I get really excited if I get a live human and I don’t have to go through one of those like phone menus before I can get there.

[00:01:57] Yes. So I, there my brain went two different directions as you were talking and we’ll hit both of ’em. But I think where I wanna go first is you mentioned you’ve been doing this for 21 years in your bio. That’s a long time to be in a service agency. You see it grow and develop and also you grow and develop.

[00:02:18] Working For Yourself

[00:02:18] Miriam: So I think I want you to talk about the genesis of this, how did you even get started with it? And as our listeners are thinking about, Oh, I might be able to do this, or I’m sick of working for someone else, how did you make the leap from working for someone else to working for yourself?

[00:02:38] Kevin: Well, that’s a really good question.

[00:02:40] So I’ve always been somewhat entrepreneurial. I can remember as a kid, You know, having a car wash business and doing it and failing miserably and then doing something else. So I’ve always had an entrepreneurial spirit. But the way this actually came to be, I was a copier technician and I would service and sell copy machines and.

[00:03:04] Just wasn’t happy I was doing it. My heart wasn’t in it. And I went to a mortgage company where I ran into some high school friends. I’ve always been a big believer that your social life and your social interaction is every bit as important as your education. But we can talk about that later. But, so I ran into some people I knew that were, we had worked at a previous job, It was a pizza, pizza place, Little Caesar’s Pizza.

[00:03:30] And they’re like, Pizza, Pizza. They said, they literally said, You gotta get out of that business and get into this business. Wow. And I said, Okay. And I started researching it. I got every book I ca could on the topic. And I didn’t believe it would work. I it, deep down inside, I was so concerned that I was gonna go broke doing this.

Save for Expenses

[00:03:53] And I at the time had, you know, part of being entrepreneurial, I had bought a house with my two brothers together and I had real expenses in my early twenties and I’m like, Well, this doesn’t work. How am I gonna make my house payment? How am I gonna make my car payment? So I actually got a second job and that job was going solely towards saving up enough money so that I had six months worth of expenses just in case it didn’t work. And I remember having I would get the cashiers check and I would have it written in the amount, and I stuck it in an envelope. It went to the mortgage company or to the car company, or to utilities. So I had literally six months of expenses.

[00:04:34] I took the leap and boy did the, did the trouble start when I took the leap .

[00:04:39] Miriam: Okay. Talk a little bit about that. And, and by the way, can I just say good on you for doing it that way? I knew, I know way too many entrepreneurial people who they get sick of their job and then a huff, they quit and they’re like, I’m gonna do X and then, stuff starts going on credit cards and they start digging a hole that they never get out of.

[00:05:02] Somebody told me entrepreneurs incredibly optimistic and that sometimes they need people to help, like tether them to earth because they just think life is magic. I love that you took into account life isn’t magic, expenses are real, and you set yourself up to success, so for success.

[00:05:22] So keep going.

[00:05:24] Kevin: Okay,

[00:05:24] Learn From Your Mistakes

[00:05:24] Kevin: what happened next? So I started a mortgage company and don’t know anything about it. I had a book and we have both No experience versus written education or two different things. Yeah. And my manager said, There’s a list. Start calling them. That’s literally how it started. And I learned b every time I learned.

[00:05:46] It cost me money every time I made a mistake. And every single time I learned one of the mistake. You really learn it when you are missing out on money because you did something wrong. No fault of anyone’s but your own. You really learn it. So I remember and, and the mortgage business, you, you, even if you work for a company, you’re really self-employed and that goes for all, almost all sales.

[00:06:11] I mean, if you don’t produce, you don’t make money. And, and that’s actually why you will never be laid off either because. You’re producing. Right. So I remember just being there. There was another guy there. I remember showing up in a tie when you, you didn’t have to in our business, at least at that level.

[00:06:30] But I just had this pride in, I’m like, I’m gonna make this work. I don’t, nothing is gonna stop me. If someone else can do it, I can do it. And it’s a matter of time. And I remember there was another guy that was there with me, his name was Dominic. And we would just sit there and call late at night and.

Being OK with Rejection

[00:06:45] Tons of rejection, just tons of we were the annoying guys on the other end of the phone, but then you’d get a small success and you were high fiving, and you could see there were, there were three or four other people, but a, a lot of people would just spend their time on low productive activities, like making sure everything was perfect, like their business card or their, whatever it was at the time, instead of just doing the high productive activity, which was.

[00:07:15] Blitzing the phones, getting the calls made, talking to everyone you knew and believing in your product. And believing what in what you were doing, so, Wow. Yeah.

[00:07:25] Miriam: Oh, there’s a ton to unpack there. I wanna focus for a second on the non-productive activities because so many people, and my audience is split between business owners or entrepreneurs.

Have Priorities

[00:07:39] And high performers and or people who wanna be high performers who are headed in that self development space. And what you’re talking about, this business of their, not all activities are equal. I mean, yeah, you get to cross it off the list, but the phone call to what? I don’t know. The phone call to schedule your lawn maintenance is not the same as the phone call calling up a client.

[00:08:07] Yeah, they’re both phone calls and yeah, you can mark one off, but one is gonna bring you revenue or greater success in whatever avenue you’re choosing and one isn’t. So I’m curious to know how you knew this. How did you understand it? It’s about action and Yeah. Where did you come by this?

[00:08:30] Kevin: Well, I had a clicking, I had a clicking time schedule.

[00:08:34] I had a certain amount of checks left before. If I didn’t make any money, what was I gonna do? I had, I had to make it, I think it was from a position of it had to work. Now, if we, if we go back in time, I didn’t have a wife, I didn’t have children. I had my own expenses, which were manageable. So it wasn’t from a position of desperation.

[00:08:57] I wanna make that clear.

[00:08:58] Take Logical Steps

[00:08:58] Kevin: I think that that is a mistake people will do leaping in when they don’t have any financial footing. I think you have to approach it from some position of, of strength. But to answer your question, the thing that that made me do, it was just starting at zero. I had nothing. So what was logically the most important thing to do?

[00:09:19] To, to work on a business card or to get a client? Getting a client was, was the more important thing to do. Yeah, I think it just made sense.

[00:09:29] Common Sense

[00:09:29] Miriam: Yeah. Well, it absolutely makes sense, but you would be shocked at how many people don’t do it. There’s a influencer I like who says, common sense is not always. Common practice, and I’ve almost taken that on as my own mantra because I’ve just seen so many people, you know, a certain part of their brain knows it’s the right thing to do and a different part of their brain is too anxious and is like, Here.

[00:09:52] Why don’t we rearrange the pencils in the little holder, whatever. You know, those self-defeating behaviors.

[00:10:00] I wanna bounce back to your friend Dominic. It seems to me like that was really important to have someone there to do it, to share your losses, to share your wins. I mean, what would it have been like if he hadn’t been there?

[00:10:16] Kevin: I hadn’t really ever thought of it before now, but you know, it was great having someone in the trenches with. And you know, it was just neat sharing those wins with them. And I think if he hadn’t been there, I don’t wanna say I wouldn’t have made it. I don’t think anything would’ve stopped me, but it certainly wouldn’t have been as sweet.

[00:10:36] And we leaned on each other and it was almost kinda like shared knowledge, you know, if I learned something that was advantageous. I shared it with him and if he learned something that was working, he shared it with me and we kind of leaned on each other, which was, was a really nice thing. Yeah.

[00:10:53] Miriam: Yeah.

It Takes Time

[00:10:54] Well, I could tell your voice changed when you talked about that and it, it felt like you know, iron sharpened iron, you guys spurred one another on in Definitely in so many positive ways. When did you know this is gonna work?

[00:11:08] Every entrepreneur has this moment where they go, I cannot believe I’m being paid to do this.

[00:11:18] Kevin: So It was a good Miriam, it was a good six months before I made a dime. I mean, I literally made no money. It was, I had people that were saying, Yes, let’s do this. It was a, it was a refinance. Crazy. At the time, rates had just gone from seven to 6%. So, So rates right now are about where they were when I started.

[00:11:40] So all of you people out there, we’ve been drunk off of good interest rates for about 10 years. So so. I remember turning loans into processing. I didn’t know what that meant. Got what I was asked to get, didn’t know why I was getting it. And they would sit and sit and sit and sit. And the company I was working for had.

[00:12:03] Growth issues because of the, the rate changes. They didn’t have quality control issues. And I remember my manager came to me one day and he said, Hey I’d like to go to a different company and I want you to go with me. Whoa. And it was because of this processing problem. Mm-hmm. and, you know, I didn’t realize that loans didn’t take four or five months to close.

Failures

[00:12:24] I just realized I was just doing my part and getting the success part, and I had faith the rest of it would work out. And actually this was the precursor to me starting my own company. But it didn’t, it didn’t work out initially. The processor just wasn’t there. There was a lot of time wasted on You know, just being in line and leads get cold.

[00:12:51] Borrowers would go somewhere else. You know, it just wasn’t working. And so I eventually left with him to another company where we experienced the same kind of problems. And then and then, and, and these were both mortgage bankers. They were one of the three types of environments. And that’s when I went to a mortgage brokerage after that.

[00:13:13] Right. And, and then I could actually get stuff.

[00:13:15] Miriam: Sure. Let me pause you for a second. What I heard you say. At the front end, you don’t know what you don’t know, right? And you think maybe this is the way things are and it sort of takes either someone else from the outside or time you know, something to interject itself into the system that helps you realize, you know what, there could actually be a better way here.

[00:13:38] Right? And an awful lot of businesses are born out of that, where people get just fed up with. Beating their head against the wall with something that should work but doesn’t.

[00:13:50] Kevin: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:13:54] Miriam: Yeah. So my original question was, when did you know it would work?

Believe

[00:14:01] Kevin: I, I think at the beginning, but, but I didn’t know what, I didn’t know, like you said. So I thought it would work and I believed it would work, and I, and I say I believed because I acted as if it would. Without any kind of wavering. I, I, I look back at it now and I’m like, Oh my gosh. But I would say three months in I knew it would work and it was a matter of time.

[00:14:25] Mm. So after I had yeses from clients, after I got positive feedback from my clients, cause I was meeting with them in their homes mm-hmm. after just getting lots of good feedback, it wa it became the getting, it isn’t the. Part that I’m gonna struggle with right now. It’s the process of actually delivering on the product that I was selling.

[00:14:48] Miriam: I see. So you realized at some point, I actually have some sales skills here and now it’s the delivering space that’s getting in the way.

[00:14:59] Believe in Your Product

[00:14:59] Kevin: I would, Is that what you said? Yeah. And can I, can I just interject something? Yeah. I actually don’t consider myself a sales, like a really strong sales person. But I know my product and I believe in my product and I and my clients look at me from a technical standpoint of solving their problem.

[00:15:17] And I’m really good at transferring trust. So the sales, there’s no pressure. My style there, it’s a very low pressure. It’s a, here’s the product I’ve got, here’s why you should do it. Here’s why I believe it’s right for you. And you make the decision and it’s served me really well. Yeah,

[00:15:34] Miriam: that makes sense.

[00:15:36] That kind of respect, I think, serves anybody really well. People do not like to feel pressured. Right. People. And the younger they get though, I mean, they’re just absolutely f. Phobic about it. It’s like, don’t true. Don’t put me in a bind. Don’t make me feel uncomfortable. And, you know, Yeah. So I, I think that that has probably served you well.

Get Out of Your Way

[00:15:58] You had a quote I believe it was on your website or somewhere that said, Stop getting in your own way. Ready, fire, aim. Right? Yeah. Which I love. Talk about that a little

[00:16:10] Kevin: bit. Well that goes back to the stop preparing and do it. You know, it’s never gonna be perfect. You’re never gonna have all of the answers and you need to just go out there and make your own way.

[00:16:22] So ready. Be as prepared as you can, but don’t spend the bulk of your time on that fire. Go do the thing and then refine later. That would be the aim part.

[00:16:33] Miriam: Sure. Jim Collins in Good to Great, I think said fire bullets, not cannon balls. And he was all. Ready, fire, and then fire the little things. Uhhuh, . And once you know you’re hitting your target, now you load up and make it a cannon ball.

[00:16:48] Kevin: That makes great sense.

[00:16:50] Buying a House

[00:16:50] Miriam: Okay, so a question that I wanna ask you has to deal with both millennials and Gen Z folks who I quite love, but I, I know quite a few people in that age category and one of the things that they are, Bemoaning much of the time is, oh my gosh, the way the world is, the way the economy is, the way prices are, I’ll never be able to own a home.

[00:17:13] And I thought you would be the perfect person to sort of ask that question and just hear what you have to say.

[00:17:20] Kevin: Yeah, I think they have a great point. I mean, we’ve seen in the last five years just prices double and that’s never happened in the history of housing in that shorter period of time.

[00:17:31] So you got a valid concern millennials and Gen Z. However, you are bigger than this problem. And here’s there’s a couple of things you can do. The first thing is look for opportunities to either buy a multi-unit property and live in half and rent the other half out.

[00:17:54] Or another one is look at your home as a stepping stone.

[00:17:58] You’re never gonna get to be in the area you wanna be with the first house. So buy a house in the area you don’t wanna be and then leapfrog that into another house. So you’ll sell it hopefully over time. It’s appreciated. And then you can eventually get the house in the area that you wanna be, but it’s never gonna happen the first, the first go round.

[00:18:19] Debt

[00:18:19] Kevin: Debt will kill you. Get rid of your debt. Don’t ever, in fact, better yet, don’t get into debt. Work another job, work hard, do what you have to do to get those expenses under control. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, these are government agencies that that set the rules for housing just allowed income from an accessory dwelling unit.

[00:18:44] Well, what does that mean? That means you can buy a house right now that might be outta your price range, and if it has a basement apartment, you can now use that income from that basement apartment to supplement your income. So now you can qualify for the house. This is something new.

[00:19:02] I just closed my first loan on it the other day. The guy never would’ve qualified for the house. Now he’s got it easy. He’s got rental income from the base. He, he, it, it really solved his problem. So there are programs out there for you guys but you gotta help yourself.

Talk on the Phone

[00:19:17] So, one other thing I want to just stress to this community is don’t be afraid to talk to someone on the phone.

[00:19:25] There’s only so much you can learn from an internet web search. And honestly, the, the hardest thing. I struggle with is actually getting you guys on the phone. Once you’re on the phone and we’ve, we’ve had a conversation. I’m talking 10 minutes. I hear the relief in your voice. I’m telling you I hear it.

[00:19:42] And that is because you have an understanding or a control over this situation that you didn’t before. So, Texting’s, great internet search are great.

[00:19:49] Pick up the phone and call someone

[00:19:54] Miriam: Oh, I love that. I love it. I was telling my kids that when they were little all the time, pick up the phone and call someone. It’s good for you, .

[00:20:04] It is. It is. Oh,

[00:20:05] well spoken.

[00:20:06] Yeah. Yeah. Something else that you had mentioned – you said you like to talk about owning assets. I think that is a great conversation because regardless of if our listeners, our business owners or high performers, everybody needs to hear this conversation about owning assets.

[00:20:27] So let’s go there. Yeah,

[00:20:28] Owning Assets

[00:20:28] Kevin: Yeah. Okay. So your bus, your regular business, or what your regular source of income is, is how you get by in the day to day. World. But if you just do that, you’re only going to be able to, you know, that that is how you make your living. You need to be able to create some space, and by that I mean.

[00:20:54] You need to be able to, Well, this is going above and beyond my mortgage company, and this is just part of who I am is I’m always looking for an opportunity to own an asset. So for example, it could be a piece of real estate or it could be a vending machine. Just something that is you can do in addition to your regular thing.

[00:21:17] That can later pay off big time for you. So, Right. So

[00:21:20] Miriam: let me interrupt for a second because I think people get confused as to what an asset is. Yeah. People say, Well, I own a boat, or I own a truck, or I own a second house, and blah, blah. Get, define the difference between an asset and a non-asset.

[00:21:36] Kevin: Okay. Well, I’ll give you my definition without looking it up.

[00:21:41] When I think of an asset, it’s something that will grow in value over time, in instead of losing value over time. So that’s it in its simplest form.

[00:21:51] Miriam: Yeah. I’ve always heard an asset is something that makes you money and the other thing is something that takes money.

Rentals

[00:21:57] Kevin: That’s right. So that’s right. And, and things can be both.

[00:21:59] That boat could be an asset if you rented it out when you’re not using it. Mm-hmm. , you know, it, it doesn’t have to just. You know, the, the traditional sense of the word asset. But someone told me a long time ago when I, Earl was just early into the business, they’re like, Hey, some opportunities you can present themselves to you and you need to take advantage of those when they come.

[00:22:21] And specifically, I, so I’ve got some rentals. That’s another thing that I do in addition to my, my mortgage company. And I’ll just, I just will never forget it was 2004, a client was gonna buy a house and they decided not to buy the house because of something That was, to them, a big deal. But to me, I’m like, Oh, I can overcome this.

[00:22:42] And you know, I bought that house for $123,000 in 2004. It’s on a half an acre in South Salt Lake, and I still have it. And it, and it’s this asset that’s appreciated over the years. Yes, it’s been a pain. N there, there’s no such thing as, as a rental that’s not, but it’s here and there. It’s totally manageable.

[00:23:02] I never go to it. Always have someone else go to it when it needs something and I’m getting really good at never leaving my office and still getting things done.

[00:23:14] I’m actually proud of it in a weird way. Yeah.

Client-Friendly Office

[00:23:17] Miriam: Well, you’ve designed the life that you want. I mean, your office is in your home, right? Yes. So, yes, I think that that makes it really fun when you can just walk up the stairs or outside or whatever, and the people you love are right there. Definitely.

[00:23:31] Kevin: Yeah. And, and just for the record, my, my office wasn’t in my home all the time.

[00:23:35] I had an office, I had a big staff. Clients don’t wanna meet in person anymore, so it’s just a business decision. Let’s get rid of the office and let’s, let’s make it work and cut some, Cut some of the financial

[00:23:47] costs.

[00:23:48] Miriam: So absolutely. That totally makes sense. I also have an office that I am never in because my clients, you know, I work with entrepreneurs and they are busy and they don’t want the commute time into the office and whatever.

[00:24:01] And so we do phone and zoom and I. To their schedule, and it works really well. So I hear mm-hmm. exactly what you’re saying. And I have other people utilizing my office and making me money while we do it. So there you go. It’s, it’s exactly as you say

[00:24:18] You mentioned at one point on a form, I think that you filled out for my podcast-

[00:24:24] you said something like, I didn’t excel in school, I couldn’t even hardly spell -none of that matters. Can you talk more about that? Yeah,

[00:24:33] All Kinds of Skills

[00:24:33] Kevin: yeah. So math, I was pretty good at spelling is getting worse every day. Thank goodness for spell checker. It’s n i I don’t consider my, I mean, I’m a smart guy but I don’t consider myself to be, you know, real, really smart.

[00:24:55] Like it’s just a matter of how motivated you are and, and getting into this business gave me a motivation that I hadn’t seen in myself before. And, None of it does matter. It, I, you should see some of the realtors I work with and I’ve worked with for years, they, they just know how to go and fire instead of aiming.

[00:25:20] And that that’s what they’re good at. They’re good at talking to a lot of people, their skills on the side of negotiation, you know, believe a lot, a lot to be desired.

[00:25:30] Really it is about the doing and. If I can do it, anyone can do it. Really. If and if, and if someone else can do it, I can do it. I, I’ve come to that realization and it’s, it’s super powerful.

[00:25:44] Miriam: Yeah, that sounds extremely powerful. I, I think about how. So many entrepreneurs did not do well in school. They might have been dyslexic or they just were wiggly. They might have had, you know, now they would say they had adhd and you know, I mean, perhaps they did. I’m not saying they did or didn’t, but.

Do Your Best

[00:26:06] Sadly there comes upon them this sense of I’m a failure because some teacher said, You’re never gonna amount to anything. Or they just got tired of bringing home Fs and whatever was happening in school wasn’t a good match for their brain. And then they find out later in life, Hey, I’m actually good at some things and I just appreciated your comment.

[00:26:32] You don’t need to spell in your job. We’ve got spellcheck. Google will do it for you. So you can do the things that you can do and you let the machines, or the help or the whatever, do the things that you can’t do. It’s all about taking those meaningful actions.

[00:26:48] Kevin: Yes. Yes. And, and can I add one other ca caveat to that?

[00:26:54] After 23, 24 years in business, it’s come down to one little thing for me that. Have distilled it to. Yeah. And this is gonna, this is so, it’s bizarre, but I’ve, I’ve come to the realization. So you have to be good at your job. That’s a given. You have to deliver what you’re saying. The rest of it is, do they like you and do they have a comfort level with you?

[00:27:18] Yeah. It’s so bizarre that it’s come to that, but that’s what it is. I mean, I’m in an age of internet. We’re in the internet age. A local broker shouldn’t. Excelling and beating Quicken Home Loans, but we do every single day and it’s because we can, we can communicate and we can talk to them, and there’s a comfort level and we like each other.

[00:27:39] Mm-hmm. really, really, that still exists and I would say stronger than ever.

Human Interaction

[00:27:44] Miriam: Well said. I agree with you. I think that people at some level are hungering for the human touch, the human interaction, and honestly decency. Yeah. I think people are pretty tired of reactiveness or getting screwed over by so and so, or.

[00:28:03] They want honesty, they want decency, and they want a live human, and they don’t wanna have to wait forever. So in addition to being good at your job, you have to be able to deliver in a timely fashion.

[00:28:15] Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. , And you have to do what you say you’re gonna do.

[00:28:19] Yeah. Isn’t that the foundation of trust right there?

[00:28:22] Yeah. Do what you say you’re gonna do.

[00:28:24] Kevin: Yeah. It’s, it’s so simple, but some people just struggle so much with it and, and if you can’t do what you said you’re gonna do, you need to let ’em know as quickly as possible, and then you need to make it right. Mm-hmm. .

[00:28:36] Miriam: Yeah. Do you have any stories like that?

[00:28:39] Something that came up and you needed to make it right?

Making it Right

[00:28:43] Kevin: Oh, over the years, there’s been a lot of ’em. Yeah, I, I have some. So there was an example where someone had put earnest money on, on a home. Well, actually I have two, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna take two of them, if that’s okay. Yeah, totally. Someone had put earnest money on the home.

[00:29:02] And earnest money is, you know, a deposit when you’re buying a house. And this is a purchase transaction. And we didn’t deliver in the timeframe we were supposed to. Now we have wholesale lenders. It technically wasn’t our fault, but. The customer doesn’t know that they’re interfacing with me. They ended up losing that earnest money and we took upon ourselves to reimburse them for it.

[00:29:25] So that’s one example. Another example is I had this client, this is well into my career. He’s very, very, very small fish, very difficult client. The realtor referred me to this guy. You know, he’s trying to do creative things on a very small loan. We’re paid a percentage of the loan amount, so it does matter, you know, for our bottom line, how big of the loan is.

[00:29:52] I called the realtor after this guy had wasted just hours of my time and I said, Hey, do you care if I blow this guy off because it’s not going anywhere. You know, it’s, it’s just not gonna work out. And the realtor says to me, Oh yeah, go ahead. I blew him off like a couple months. .

Get Humble

[00:30:11] And then I had made the decision I was gonna stop working with his client.

[00:30:15] Then I had this little voice in my head that said, Stop being so arrogant and get humble. You’re thankful for any client that you have.

[00:30:24] And I just took that approach and I just worked with him and I made his transaction work. We worked through it together. I’m telling you, it was a total waste of time. If you’re thinking transactionally.

[00:30:38] Right now that client is my partner on a 10 unit V R B O development that’s happening in southern Utah, and that’s what happened as a result of that little tiny decision for me to say, Nope, get humble and stick through this.

[00:30:57] Miriam: Yeah, that’s a good mic drop moment because we do not know. Where the next big I don’t know,

[00:31:08] Kevin: opportunity, that’s not even mortgage related. It’s, it’s outside of the scope of the mortgage world, but we got that close over this and we, you know, one transaction led to another. He mentioned a project he’s doing.

[00:31:21] How can I do this? I don’t think I have the resources. I’m like, Maybe I do. Maybe we could work on it together. And just one conversation led to another. It’s just Miriam, you look back at how you got to where you are, and that’s the defining moment was a thought in my head that said, Stop being so arrogant and get humble.

Be Thankful

[00:31:39] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I, I think that’s pretty profound. I, I do think. I would love to hear you speak about the progression from when you first start in a business, everything’s new and you feel kind of scared or at least insecure. Then you get better and better and better, and you tip over into that arrogance space and that space is a place where People just think they’re better than everybody else, you know?

[00:32:12] Or I, they just can’t deal with, I don’t need to deal with you. You’re a hassle or whatever. Bring it full circle as you talk about get humble. What does that mean in your day- to- day now with the people that you serve?

[00:32:30] Kevin: Well, if I, if I took it down and distilled that down, I would say It’s a thankfulness, right?

[00:32:41] You’re lucky to be doing what you’re doing. It’s a,

[00:32:45] I mean, success has its own problems and this is one of ’em, you, you when you do get successful, it gets hard to, to maintain the same level for everyone. So I would say a thankfulness, that’s the key piece is, Hey, you’re fortunate to have this.

[00:33:05] You’re fortunate to be here. And you need to act that way.

[00:33:10] Miriam: Yeah,

[00:33:11] yeah. You know, to me, Kevin, that feels like the perfect place to end this interview with us just looking at ways that we can be thankful for the people who have come into our lives, you know whether they’re friends or clients or whomever.

[00:33:30] Yeah, that thankfulness is really important.

[00:33:33] How to Find Kevin

[00:33:33] Miriam: Can you tell our listeners where they can find you? Yeah.

[00:33:38] Kevin: So I have a website, it’s mortgagesolutionsofutah.com. So kevin@better-homeloans.com.

[00:33:49] Miriam: We will, we will put all your information in the show notes as well. And I mentioned to you before we started that we, as a thank you, always do a donation in your name to one of four charities.

[00:34:00] You chose Mercy Ships. I love Mercy Ships because they offer free surgeries to people who can’t afford them on the continent of Africa. I think right now they’re outside of Senegal healing clef PS and tumors and things like that. So we’re excited to just send that in your name and thank you again just for sharing your time and wisdom and expertise with us.

[00:34:22] Kevin: Thank you. I’m so, It’s such a privilege.

End Credits

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Music by Tom Sherlock.

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