Charles Read tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax

 [00:00:56] Miriam: I am excited today to have Charles Reed with us. [00:01:00] And you can see on if you’re watching the video, you can see his company is called, Get Payroll.

[00:01:05] I love the name because it tells exactly what you do. And if I’m not mistaken and did my math, right, you have had this company in payroll related services for over 30 years now, is that correct?

[00:01:17] Charles: That’s correct Miriam. Yes.

[00:01:19] Miriam: All right. Well, you’ve been, you are a senior executive. You’ve been an entrepreneur for over 50 years with financial leadership. I think some of the things I’m really interested in, in the context of this conversation are your involvement with the IRS and your understanding of compliance.

[00:01:37] And before I lose my listeners, We all have to pay attention to this money thing, because it’s gonna mess us up if we’re not careful. So whether you have a business or you don’t have a business, this is an important episode to listen to because Charles is gonna talk with us about some of the changes and some of the things that are going on, and we’re just excited to have you.

[00:01:59] Charles: [00:02:00] Thank you, Miriam. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:02] Miriam: Absolutely.

Inflation Today

[00:02:04] Miriam: From a financial person’s perspective, what you are seeing in the inflation, recession space, and how that’s impacting what you’re doing with your money and your thoughts and your spending let’s, let’s just start there and then we’re gonna go, you know, wherever the conversation takes us.

[00:02:23] Charles: Obviously inflation is here with a vengeance. I remember it very well in the eighties. Cuz I’d bought a house with a 12% mortgage rate. Oh my gosh. It was variable. So it, it, it, it was going down. So I remember the last big one and this one is just as bad. It’s not going to get better immediately. The only saving grace is the employment market it’s still full employment.

[00:02:46] If you want a job, you can get a job. The jobs are available and easy to find, and they’re paying more every day. Because of inflation. Employers are finding that if they have don’t raise their pay they’re not attracting people.

[00:02:59] Obviously we’re [00:03:00] in the payroll business. We see those rate changes come through every day. So we, we see what’s happening with average wages and so on and so forth. And that brings one in interesting thing. Minimum wage is basically a non-existent item. It’s out there.

[00:03:16] It’s the law. And a few people really try to use it, but the vast, vast, vast majority of people don’t pay anybody at minimum wage.

Advice for the Younger Generation

[00:03:26] Miriam: Yeah. What would your input be for younger people? People between the ages of 25 and 40, you know, in that age range where they’re like, oh my gosh, – they haven’t lived through some of these periods to know how it plays out.

[00:03:42] And they’re just seeing their costs go higher and higher. And they’re sort of going, ah, I don’t know what to do here.

[00:03:51] Charles: This too shall pass. Yeah. Inflation will recede prices will stabilize. They will stabilize at a higher point, but your [00:04:00] earnings will be higher. So you shouldn’t be worse off in the end. In the meantime, it’s difficult, it’s a pain and you’re going to have to be careful.

[00:04:12] You need to work hard and you need to invest. You need to save and yeah, it looks like that savings isn’t doing much, but if you invest it in growth stocks, preferably then over time it will overcome inflation and you will become wealthy.

[00:04:29] I taught high school for five years – I taught intro to business every morning.

[00:04:33] Before work, I’d go in and teach one class, then come in and run my business.

[00:04:37] Miriam: That’s awesome. Awesome.

Invest Early

[00:04:38] Charles: It was a lot of fun. They kept me young and I talked to ’em about compound interest and invested and so on. And one young lady was working at McDonald’s and I said, okay, would you miss $10 a week outta your paycheck?

[00:04:52] She said, nah, not really. I said, good. Invest that. Every week invest that. And [00:05:00] when you turn my age, I was in my mid fifties, I guess at the time -you’ll be rich. And she thought that was a great idea. I saw her about five, six years later at the grocery store and we chatted for a bit and I said, have you invested, been investing that $10?

[00:05:17] And she said, no.

[00:05:19] Miriam: Oh,

[00:05:21] Charles: so, and it’s an opportunity that you have when you’re young that you don’t have when you get above 40 as much, because. Time value of money, compound interest between 18 and 40- you’re looking at doubling your, your investment three times over minimum on average. Yeah. So it grows and it grows and it compounds. Einstein said, you know, compound interest is, is the greatest force in the universe.

[00:05:51] Yeah. And it is a wonderful thing. So to young people. Work hard invest.

[00:05:58] I had lunch with Lee [00:06:00] Iococa here. A number of years ago, gentleman, that ran Chrysler, who was Ford Mustang and then Chrysler and he said, it’s, it’s really easy to get rich in this country, Charles, just work half a day, every day. It doesn’t matter whether you work the first 12 hours or the last 12 hours.

[00:06:18] yeah. Now that was semi in gest, but the idea is work hard, save and invest. And over time, you’ll be amazed at what happens.

[00:06:29] Miriam: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. And I love that you pulled out the Einstein quote because in my mind I was like, I’m pretty sure Einstein said this and I was gonna try and cobble it together, but you got it.

Inflation for Business Owners

[00:06:41] Miriam: Okay. So for our business owners out there, what kind of insight would you be giving them about inflation and what’s going on?

[00:06:50] Charles: Raise your prices. Your clients will understand your customers will understand. They’re getting it everywhere. They know it. Don’t be greedy obviously, but you’ve got [00:07:00] to cover your costs.

[00:07:01] You’ve gotta keep your profit margins up. You can’t afford to give it away. So yeah, you’re gonna have to increase the prices. You’re gonna have to increase them several times. We, we did a major price increase earlier this year. And we got one person who said really? And I said, 9% inflation. And he said, eh, okay.

[00:07:24] mm-hmm so they understand they’re living it too, just like you are. And you can’t afford to let inflation drive you out of business.

[00:07:33] My father was an independent businessman. And number of years ago, he was talking about raising his prices and he was talking about a little of this and a little that.

[00:07:42] I said, double your prices. He said, I can’t do that. I said, double your prices. And if you lose half your clients, you’re gonna make just as much money and work half as hard. Yeah. So he did. And he got more new business inquiries than he’d ever gotten in his life.

[00:07:59] Miriam: Why do you [00:08:00] think?

[00:08:01] Charles: Because he did a great job for his clients. He had provided great value. Some of his clients, he hadn’t increased their price in 30 years. Mm-hmm okay. So he was well under the market, he was cheap and once he raised his price to a more reasonable level, they looked at and they said, we’re getting a good value for our money even now.

[00:08:22] If you’re not in commodity business, then pricing is much more flexible. Our business, we, we sell based on our, our compliance expertise that our competitors don’t have. So we’re not competing with them. We’re offering a service that they don’t offer in addition to payroll. So we’re not competing with ADP or Pay Checks

[00:08:46] we’re competing tax attorneys and these kinds of people. So it’s a whole different world.

Tax Compliance

[00:08:52] Miriam: Yeah. So take a second and explain- what I had heard was just a huge amount of people being hired to create [00:09:00] compliance and that things were gonna get a lot more difficult for many more people. What is your understanding of what is happening with tax compliance and how does that impact business owners?

[00:09:13] Charles: The inflation reduction act, which is. Oxymoron. It does not reduce inflation. It increases inflation has in a number of tax increases, and in addition it add allocates another 80 billion a year to the internal revenue service.

[00:09:33] Of which at least 50 billion is supposed to go to enforcement.

[00:09:39] Which means a lot of agents and, and a lot of audits and know it’s not gonna be on billionaires and millionaires. It’s gonna be on you and me. It’s going to be on small business. Small business is frankly, under audited. The chance of an S Corp being audited at the moment are four tenths of 1% per year.

[00:09:57] Okay. So it, they [00:10:00] are under-audited, but it’s going to be a huge change in the number of IRS agents.

[00:10:07] I spent three years on the IRS advisory council, now, the IRS for the most part, they’re good people. They’re mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters. They’ve got families.

[00:10:20] They want to do their job. Yes. They’re civil servants. Yes. They get their 30 days of vacation. Yes. You can’t fire them and no, they do not have the same drive to do the job that independent business people do because it’s our, it’s our livelihood and we have to make our own, they’re just going for the next GS.

[00:10:41] And most of that’s based on seniority, but they’re not bad people for the most part. The laws are written by the Congress. So if you’re not happy with a tax law, don’t take it out on the IRS. Take it out on your Congressman.

[00:10:57] He wrote it. Or his staff did and [00:11:00] he voted for it. So the IRS is just the enforcement arm for federal tax laws that our Congress writes.

[00:11:10] But you are going to have to be far more cautious about compliance moving forward. Now it’s not gonna happen this year. They gotta find 87,000 people to hire. They have to find 87,000 people that wanna work for the IRS.

[00:11:28] And when you think about that, now it has a lot of advantage.

Finance Education

[00:11:31] Miriam: Yeah. So something that I noticed that your company does that I find as a differentiator – you provide some form of protection against that.

[00:11:40] Charles: Well, our unique selling proposition is compliance. I’m a certified public account. I’m a us tax court practitioner. And what that means is I can represent my clients in us tax court without being an attorney. I have a bar card from the us tax [00:12:00] court. I can go down to the court, stand up in front of the judge and say, I’m representing Joe blow and put on my case and my defense against the internal revenue service.

[00:12:13] I haven’t lost a case yet. I’ll lose one sooner or later. I promise you. But at the moment, my record’s perfect. I had three tax court cases on my desk until yesterday and they acquiesced in one and just said, we’re gonna, we’re just gonna give it to you.

[00:12:28] So good. I

[00:12:29] won, I won that one.

[00:12:30] That one’s my client’s happy

[00:12:32] Miriam: I think that that’s something that is very, very scary to people. You get a letter from the IRS and sometimes I’ve gotten ones that are. Talking about a small change that’s been made, but I tell you what they sit on my counter for two days until I have enough Moxi to open it.

[00:12:50] Charles: my wife and I went into business together 30 years ago. And we take, I take as a CPA, a, a form 28 48 on every [00:13:00] client that said IRS limited power of attorney. And it allows me to advocate for my clients, which is part of our compliance. So we get a copy of the certified letter. Via certified mail to our office.

[00:13:13] I’ve been a CPA for almost 50 years. I’m very, very good at this. In most cases, I know more than the IRS agent that I’m dealing with because this is an area I specialize in.

[00:13:27] Sure. And IRS agents change in various areas over the years to get more experience, they get transferred from department to department to department. So you’re unlikely to find an employment tax IRS agent with 30 years of experience, I have that I’ve studied it. I’ve studied the law.

[00:13:45] I fought these things for 30 years, so they can’t pull the wool over my eyes. They can’t intimidate me. I try to tell my clients not to talk to the IRS because [00:14:00] they’ll get upset because it’s personal. Let me talk to the IRS because it’s not personal to me. Right. Because when it gets. You get upset. ,

[00:14:10] Miriam: it’s so true. Especially talking about money, you know, all of these things are a recipe for getting in your amygdala space in your head where it’s that fight flight or freeze.

Financial Discussions for Partners

[00:14:24] Miriam: And one of the conversations I wanted to go with with you is as a financial guy, talk about the kind of conversations. Partners should be having about money, whether you have a business or not.

[00:14:38] Charles: My wife and I were in business together for, for many years before she passed, I believe there’s two things that make a marriage work, because a marriage is a partnership.

[00:14:49] And it’s communication and compromise. You have to have both.

[00:14:54] If it’s really important to her and not important to you, let her do it her way. It’s really important to you, but not [00:15:00] important to her. Do it your way. If it’s not important to either one of you just flip a coin, the only real argument is if it’s real important to both of you.

[00:15:08] So you have to compromise, but communication with your spouse, they’ve gotta know what’s going on. I get innocent spouses in here whose husbands have done stupid things on tax returns.

[00:15:21] I haven’t yet had one where it’s the wife. And I’m not trying to be sexist here. It’s just my experience.

[00:15:26] You have to know what’s going on in that tax return, because if you sign it as a spouse, you’re responsible.

[00:15:33] Yeah. If you think it’s wrong, don’t sign it. Refuse to sign it, then go see your divorce attorney, but don’t sign tax returns just cuz hubby says it’s right.

[00:15:44] Know what’s going on? Know what you, what you’re signing, know what you’re being involved in because if you sign that return and there ends up being money due years later, the IRS is not gonna go, oh, well, , that’s ok.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] No, they’re gonna say we’re gonna take it outta your paycheck. We’re gonna take your bank accounts. We’re gonna take your retirement. We’re gonna take everything except your first born.

[00:16:07]

Business Ethics

[00:16:46] Miriam: Yeah. What I hear you talking about is ethics and, paying attention to what your name and your reputation and your energy are attached to.

[00:16:57] And this holds true within companies too. I [00:17:00] would like to believe that companies are all above board, but obviously they aren’t all, or there wouldn’t be anything for the papers to write about and there’s this, that, and the other happening.

[00:17:09] And somebody knows somebody gets a gut feeling somebody, ah, looks the other way, one time.

[00:17:16] What I hear you saying is if you live long enough, that stuff comes back to bite you in the end.

[00:17:22] Charles: It does. And I see companies quite often where there’s internal fraud. Mm-hmm I have a, a local doctor who’s bookkeeper retired, and one of the other girls in the office said she wanted the job.

[00:17:36] Well, she went to jail for embezzling several hundred thousand dollars and the IRS seized his retirement accounts and bank accounts and everything else. So, and that’s not unusual. I see that several times a year, internal fraud.

[00:17:52] So if you own a company, you need to be extraordinarily careful about who you trust with anything.

[00:17:58] It’s one of the reasons to that [00:18:00] why I exist is to outsource payroll. Sure. So you don’t have to worry about. You approve it. And I process it – we get this all the time where that person’s supposed to make the tax deposits doesn’t make them covers it up for years.

[00:18:13] Finally gets caught. Well that money’s long gone. They’ve spent it. So yeah, you can put ’em in jail, but that doesn’t alleviate you from having to pay the IRS for that money that was stolen.

[00:18:25] The IRS doesn’t care. Somebody stole it from you. You still have to pay them. Yeah, they, they have no, they have no sympathy for that.

Leadership in Business

[00:18:36] Miriam: You’re someone who’s been in business for over five decades. Talk to me about beliefs or actions that are important to you as a leader, you lead your company. Let’s talk about leadership for a little bit.

[00:18:52] Charles: I’m also a Marine.

[00:18:54] Marine veteran, combat veteran, and in the Marine Corps, one of the ways to [00:19:00] talk about leadership is mission, men, self. You accomplish the mission at whatever the cost. You accomplish, the mission. Then you take care of your men. Then you take care of yourself.

[00:19:18] I remember this being brought back very specifically to me, I was in, in Girlilla warfare school, in Northern Okinawa, and we’d been out in the field for about a week. It was a two week course and we hadn’t had a hot meal living off of C rats and you know, hadn’t had a shower.

[00:19:33] And finally we got brought out a hot meal and the Lieutenant who was our platoon commander made sure every one of us got fed before he got a plate of hot food. Yeah. So he’d been in the field with us. Nobody could have stopped him if he’d gone first, but he wouldn’t .No. That’s leadership.

[00:19:58] So my job is [00:20:00] to, and, and now is to make sure that my clients business gets done. Payrolls, get processed perfectly on time.

[00:20:08] Every time. Then it’s to take care of my employees. My job as CEO is to make them happy, make their job easy.

[00:20:19] The easier it is, the more efficient they are happier my clients are the more money we make. Then I can take care of myself.

[00:20:29] Miriam: Simon Sinek wrote a book called Leaders Eat Last, and I love that you even gave that example and he must have hung out with some military folks to get that. He’s a very humble man and I love his business books and his insights are Hey, park, your ego at the door and serve your fellow man, which I think is what I hear you saying,

Enjoy Life

[00:20:49] Miriam: yeah. So tell me at this stage, in your life, what concept or idea are you currently chewing on

[00:20:58] Charles: I enjoy life. I, [00:21:00] I enjoy what I do. I enjoy the people around me

[00:21:03] Being a widower. I, yeah, the house gets lonely sometimes at night, but I I’m a lifelong learner, so I continue to learn, continued read. I don’t watch TV. I read. But at this point in my life, I want to enjoy my life. Enjoy the people I’m with. I’m not near as confrontational as I was when I was 20.

[00:21:24] But you know, coming outta the Marine Corps, you, you tend to be confrontational.

[00:21:29] Miriam: There’s a little bit of that.

[00:21:31] Charles: The best, the best thing that ever happened to me was my wife. She, she moderated me a great deal and taught me a lot. She was a wonderful people person and taught me a really much better way to handle and understand people in civilian life mm-hmm it was the best decision I ever made in my life was marry Ruth.

[00:21:51] Miriam: Yeah. And look at just the ripples that came off of that decision. I, I think that, you know, that’s a good lesson to all of us [00:22:00] that the decisions we make have far reaching consequences.

[00:22:03] So make, make good ones,

Decisions Have Consequences

[00:22:05] Charles: you know, absolutely decisions have consequences.

[00:22:09] If you made bad decisions in college, they’ll haunt you all your life. I have some decisions I’ve made in my life that I. I regret not investing more when I was younger, frankly. , I’d be a lot working today. Yeah. But then I have decisions I made like asking Ruth to marry me that I am forever ecstatic about having made that decision and gotten a yes from her.

[00:22:34] Yeah. How long were you guys married? We were married for 45 years before she pass. Wow. Wow. That is a testimony to your ability to listen and to compromise and to work with her. So that’s good. Well, yeah, I’m not sure. She’d agree all the time, but yes. . Oh my goodness, Charles, since you’re a reader, what’s a good book.

[00:22:57] You’ve read recently or a book you would [00:23:00] recommend besides your own. We’ll have, we’ll have in the show notes, your own books, but

Recommended Books

[00:23:04] Charles: one of the books I’m rereading that I would recommend to. It is, it is a new translation of the meditations of Marcus aureus. Mm. It is called the emperor’s handbook.

[00:23:17] I mean, obviously the, the meditations go back 2000 years. Sure. If you watched. So gladiator, I think it was mm-hmm with Crow. Mm-hmm that movie, the first emperor that died was Marcus a this sure. From that time period.

[00:23:33] Now for your people who are in business. I recommend Michael Gerber’s The E-Myth Revisited.

[00:23:40] Miriam: Ah, I just read that. Yes. It teaches you how to work on your business. Not in your business,

[00:23:46] not in your business.

[00:23:47] Charles: I buy it by the dozen, literally a dozen a time and give it out to clients. Yeah, it is required reading for every new employee in my company.

[00:23:59] Miriam: Tell, [00:24:00] explain to me why you’re giving it to your employees.

[00:24:02] Charles: If you’ll read that and reread it. I reread it every few years. It comes down to policies and procedures. Yes. Okay. Who makes the recommendations to change those? the CEO doesn’t, it’s the people who are doing the work on a daily basis. Mm-hmm , they’re the ones that see the problems.

[00:24:22] Those are the people that need to understand why they need to bring it up, why they need to champion changes and why following policy and procedure, which is an everchanging volume, is so important.

[00:24:37] So they’re the ones that have to say, this is an exception. We need to decide how to handle it. So they need to be intimately involved in the business and in the policies and procedures and in the changes in those manuals. So, yes, I want them to be aware of the, what, why and how, of what we’re doing, not just their [00:25:00] job.

[00:25:01] I can’t know everything. I’m not the smartest man in the room.

[00:25:06] My job is to hire the smartest person in the room and listen to the people who work for. me Because they know what’s going on far better than I do. If they’re yes. People, I’m not going to get real input. I’m not going to get real change. I’m not gonna get told what the problems are. Right. Okay. And I have to know, or I can’t fix the things that I can fix as a CEO if I don’t know they’re broken, I don’t know to fix them.

[00:25:36] Miriam:

A Force for Good

[00:25:36] Miriam: How do you see yourself as working for a force for good in our world?

[00:25:43] Charles: Well, you know, I think we, I think as a company, we do a great job and provide a substantial service to our clients and to make their life easier.

[00:25:54] I also employ a number of people and provide them with a way to have a [00:26:00] family, take care of their families, grow, prosper, save for retirement. We’ve got a 401k, we’ve got other things.

[00:26:08] I personally have set up a scholarship. We mentor at one of the high schools here in Dallas, and we have scholarships and I’ve set up a, a special Memorial scholarship in my wife’s name, and it will be a a legacy in her name for some extended period of time.

[00:26:29] Miriam: So, you know lots of ways you’ve given it a lot of thought and you are trying to impact your world in a multitude of ways, which is one of the reasons I like to interview people on this show who are trying to do good.

[00:26:44] I I’m like, oh my gosh, don’t make a bunch of money and then be a jerk.

[00:26:49] Make a bunch of money and then go do something for your fellow man or your planet.

[00:26:55] You cannot take it with you.

[00:26:58] Charles: You cannot. [00:27:00] Okay.

[00:27:01] And when you’re gone, you’re going to be quickly forgotten as we all are,

[00:27:07] so it’s what you do while you’re alive and your philosophy and dealing with nature and your fellow man- those are the important things.

[00:27:19] You know many of my heroes are, are gone. Yeah. And are seldom are remembered. So. Life goes on.

[00:27:27] You have to live with it.

[00:27:29] Miriam: So do good while you’re still alive and kicking. You can bless the people around you-

[00:27:34] Charles: -very much so. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:36] Well, thank you so much for spending time here. Why don’t you tell my audience just how they can reach you or find you? Sure. Get payroll.com.

[00:27:47] My email is CJR@ get payroll.com. And if they’ve got a payroll question or a payroll tax problem that they really gotta talk about [00:28:00] 9 7 2 3 5 3 0 0 0 0. And ask for Charles.

[00:28:07] Miriam: Wow. That was brave. Giving your phone number is always brave. well, Charles, I I mentioned before we started that we wanted to gift a charity donation in your name and you chose mercy ships.

[00:28:21] That is a charity that gives free surgeries to people in need off the coast of Africa. And so we’ll be sending that off today in your name, or if you’d like, we’ll put it in your wife’s name and thank you for your service and thank you for your time.

[00:28:38] Charles: My pleasure, Miriam.

[00:28:40] [00:29:00]

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Self-sabotage and your intuition with Angella Johnson

Self-sabotage and your intuition.

[00:00:00] Miriam: Angela. It’s fun to see you again. I’m really happy for this conversation.

[00:00:04] Angella: I’m so happy to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this, right.

[00:00:07] Miriam: Me too. All right. Well, why don’t we start by, I mean, I know in the intro, I kind of told a little bit about what you do. But I would love to have you explain your philosophy of business and how you’ve seen it change over the course of the last little bit.

[00:00:22] And I also want you to realize that my listeners are split- half of them are business owners and the other half are people who wanna improve their life. So we’re gonna bounce back and forth between the topic of business and the topic of self development.

[00:00:36] Angella: Perfect.

Philosophy of Business

[00:00:36] Angella: Well, my philosophy, a couple philosophies is one is you have to fit your business into your life, not the other way around. For a lot of years, I had that backwards. And so very much appreciating the balance of, we have to talk about life.

In addition to talking about business. The other piece is I really, you know, fundamentally believe that if we, and when we change the way we [00:01:00] do business, we change the world that we co-create together.

[00:01:04] And, and so my, my specialty is marketing and messaging. I work with a lot of service- based entrepreneurs. So people like me, I work from home. I have a part-time assistant. I don’t, you know, I’m not manufacturing something. I’m not managing a huge team.

How it all began

[00:01:16] And so I provide a service and you know, when I started this venture back in late 2008, I was amazed that a regular person like me could essentially write their own paycheck. On one hand, that can be really exciting. On the other hand, it’s terrifying because there’s nobody giving you a paycheck or your 401k match or paid sick time. It is really up to you.

[00:01:42] I’ve never quite fit into traditional systems, or if you do these things, then this is a happy life. And so it definitely fit. Fit for my, my life path.

[00:01:52] Miriam: Yeah. That makes sense to me. So many of the entrepreneurs I’ve talked with said,” I made a terrible employee. I hated people telling me what [00:02:00] to do.” So many of us are people who like to chart our own course, and there is nothing wrong with being a team player there’s a space for all of us. Right. I have done both, but I, I guess I’m just saying, I hear what you’re saying. yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:02:16] Angella: As an example, my husband is very much satisfied and happy with his nine-five and his 401k matching. And he’s very content with that, like, it actually helps ’em feel safe in the world by doing that.

[00:02:30] I don’t have that experience. I feel stifled-I feel like I can’t like I’m being suffocated. What I’m here to do on the planet, I can’t do within the confines of that particular job. Now, that’s not to say that’s everybody, because it does take all kinds to make the world go round. So I totally hear what you’re saying.

Marketing Shift

[00:02:50] Miriam: Yeah, that’s right. Talk to me about how you’ve seen your ideas of marketing shift through, you know, and messaging. Yeah. Through the tenure of what the last [00:03:00] 10 years or so.

[00:03:01] Angella: you know, so when I started my business, I, I really, and I say that , I got sucked into a world of high ticket coaching. I knew about people like Tony Robbins or Jack Canfield, , these big names and, and books and big stages. I thought, oh, that’s for them. That’s not for people like, like myself.

[00:03:17] I got sucked into this world of online business and coaching.

[00:03:22] And, and it worked- ish until it really did not work. It’s, you know, build your business to six figures and then to seven figures. And you just, you do what you’re told to do.

[00:03:33] You buy into all the formulas, you do them just right. And then you will have success. I thought, okay, well, this can’t be that hard. Can it , you know? So I became this poster child for six- figure- business in less than a year. And I was climbing this ladder and it felt very similar to when I was climbing the corporate ladder and in the process, I was losing myself. In the process, I would have these experiences and I didn’t have the language then to know what was [00:04:00] happening, but I was definitely being triggered.

Don’t Lose Yourself in the Process

[00:04:02] Angella: I was in abusive relationships with coaches. I would say, I thought that strategy or this advice would tell me just doesn’t quite feel right. Like it feels kind of slimy and I would often be met with a response of that’s just your fear talking. Like, do you really want fear to make another decision for you?

[00:04:23] And the, the challenge with phrases like that is one you’re paying this person a lot of money. Mm-hmm, two, there’s a power dynamic that you don’t wanna be unreasonable or difficult. Well, they’re clearly they clearly know more than I do because they’re making the seven figures and I’m not.

[00:04:40] So maybe I just put my ego to the side and, and just do what they’re telling me to do. But the thing that was missing was, again, this language and awareness of why doesn’t this feel right. Why, what what’s really happening if it wasn’t my fear? Cuz it is, it is scary to put yourself out there, be visible and ask people for money.[00:05:00]

[00:05:00] you know, that’s not necessarily a skill I was born with. But what was really happening is I felt like my soul and my intuition were screaming at me saying, there’s another way. You don’t have to, for example, buy into people’s pain points and push on those pain points. You don’t have to. If you’re selling a high ticket service, you know, have a 30 minute conversation.

Question the Advice

[00:05:20] The advice was always, you don’t hang up the phone until you have the person’s credit card number. And on one hand, I can, I can see that. But on the other hand, I thought I just, is this really what we’re doing? When I said at the very beginning of like how we change, if we change the way we do business, we change this world that we’re living in.

[00:05:40] And this is what I mean is all of those strategies I was being taught was, was really rooted in energy of scarcity, of lack, of greed, of manipulation, of powering over somebody. Rather than co-creating with someone or empowering someone to, to make the best [00:06:00] decision for them. Versus the decision that helped me meet, you know, make my income goal for the month.

[00:06:05] So all of these different strategies I was learning and in the meantime, I was growing my business, doing all the things, but behind the scenes, my marriage was falling apart. My health was not great. Money was going out faster than it was coming in. So even though I was making like almost multiple six figures, so translation almost $200,000 in revenue. I had zero savings I was just paying coaches and for events and all the things.

But What About Our Nervous Systems?

[00:06:31] But no one was having conversations around money management. No one was having conversations around my nervous system, capacity, sustainability, or even are you, are you having joy? like, are you enjoying any of this or are you just climbing on this perpetual ladder that never ends for what? You know? So that was my, my journey.

[00:06:55] And so in 2017, I mean, it was actually before that it [00:07:00] was about 2014. I burned it all down and I just said, I, I physically could not do it another day, spiritually, mentally, physically, like I was completely depleted.

[00:07:11] And I thought if I can grow a business, doing all these things that are exhausting, that don’t feel right to me. What if I did it with my intuition in the, for. What if I did it with a softness and a sustainability and in a more soulful way, like, I’m just, I’m going to bet on myself here. And I did that. And so I rebuilt my business. I got back to the, you know, this coveted six figures, which really we can have a whole other conversation around.

[00:07:40] That means nothing , you know? But I, I had, I found myself again. You know, and I did it in a way that I could sleep at night. I knew that I was treating people well. I was creating relationships with people instead of just transactions. Yeah. And that [00:08:00] was huge shift.

Intuition in Business

[00:08:02] Miriam: So I think that a lot of people don’t actually know what intuition or intuitive means sometimes that word is thrown about, and it means different things to different people.

[00:08:14] Mm-hmm so share for a second, what that means to you and how it played out in your business and translate it for people who don’t own businesses.

[00:08:24] Angella: Yeah. So I, I have a fundamental belief that everyone has. A gut instinct. Like you can tell when something is just off, you know, sometimes people have just this instant, knowing some people have a literal, like gut, like reaction.

[00:08:40] Like they feel it in their gut either kind of goes clunk or it’s like, okay, that feels good. And a lot of times people, you know, use intuition of that only happens in a religious context. And I believe that everyone has intuition. And so it’s this knowing of what is your life path?

[00:08:57] But the challenge with trusting our [00:09:00] intuition is when we’re, it starts from when we’re very young, someone always knows best mm-hmm and rightfully so, like our parents know best when we’re two years old.

Be Curious 

[00:09:09] Well, some parents know best, you know? But it starts in school, you know, politicians, healthcare, like all of these experts know more than you do, which is not really the, the case, but our intuition gets dampened and it gets just, you know, diluted. We just start squashing it down more and more and more.

[00:09:32] And when we actually allow ourselves to be in the question to be curious about things, to consider possibilities, to actually know what’s best for us. I really believe that we, we find our life path. You know, we make decisions based on what is really right for us rather than what we should be doing according to society. So that’s what I mean by intuition.

[00:09:56] And, you know, I always think. But if you have a best friend or, [00:10:00] you know, parents with their children, their relationship, like those moments, when you just go, I need to check in with that person. I wonder how my child’s doing. Yeah. That’s your intuition. And when we use that in our business, then we start making decisions based on what’s aligned and what feels right for us rather than, oh, well, here’s the formula- fit your self into the formula.

[00:10:22] So things like what should I price my program at? Well, it should be this because everyone ends, you know, it’s $97 cuz everybody ends in a seven, you know, like that’s this trend? It’s like, well, what if like what feels right to me? And it’s not just blindly picking a number. Like you have to make sure your costs are covered, like use logic, with your intuition, but that’s just, that’s just one example.

What Is My Soul Here To Do?

[00:10:46] And so really being led by what I use the word soul, like what my soul is here to do, rather than fitting myself into someone else’s formula, because they happen to, you know, have [00:11:00] made seven figures, teaching that formula.

[00:11:02] Miriam: Sure. So let me ask a clarifying question because I understand both sides of what you’re talking about.

[00:11:09] As a therapist and a coach, I understand that space of “face your fear.” And I also understand that space of power. And I also understand that space that sometimes your gut, because of trauma or whatever is telling you to back up when you need to go forward. Yes. And sometimes your gut is saying, you need to go forward and you need to listen to it.

[00:11:32] Mm-hmm and that’s a very tricky line for people to figure out. And I find often there are people who haven’t done the work, who I guess maybe listen to that reactive voice and they actually make decisions that are bad for them, whether that is purchasing the $10,000 course or whether that is running away from the potential date that they could have gone on that might have changed their life.

[00:11:58] Right. And then you have [00:12:00] other people who are so in tune with their internal sense of whatever, right and wrong that the hair on the back of their neck goes up. And you find out later that that person they were talking to was a child molester and they picked it up, you know, mm-hmm, like some people are in tune with that space that you need to listen to.

Connect to the True Intuition

[00:12:21] Miriam: Yeah. And there is that other space that you need to challenge. Yes. And I guess as someone who has been on both sides of that fence, and you work with people. So I would like to know how you help people connect to that true intuition, how you helped you connect to that true intuition versus the space that needs to be challenged.

[00:12:46] Angella: I am so glad you asked this question because it’s a, it’s one of the top questions I get is how do you tell is this your intuition or is this a trauma response? Right? You know, that trauma response can kick on that because your nervous system, its job is to keep you safe. And so [00:13:00] there’s this familiarity of, oh, okay.

[00:13:02] I don’t have to put myself out there. I, I can stay safe and my little cocoon and this feels safe. Meanwhile, there’s this disconnect of, “but if I just stay here. How am I ever going to let people know what my business is about?” You know? And so there’s not an easy answer and there’s a frustrating, frustrating answer, which is it takes practice.

[00:13:24] Yeah. You know, like, so when I really get quiet and I know how, for me, my intuition is usually quite immediate, but where I get myself into trouble is I start talking myself in and out of things, I start justifying things. I start loosening my boundaries with things. I ignore that in that immediate, like, I don’t know if this is a good idea.

[00:13:44] No, it’ll be fine. Just, just, you know, just trust, just push through it. And so. Personally how my intuition works.

Practice Trying to Understand Your Intuition

[00:13:51] I’ll use my husband as an example. He usually needs about 24 hours. And so he has to ride this kind of emotional wave of like, yeah, this is a great idea. No, this is a horrible [00:14:00] idea.

[00:14:00] And then usually in about a day after he sleeps on it, he gets to this place where it’s a more of a logical, like, this is what makes sense for me.

[00:14:09] When you start experimenting with, is this my intuition or is this a mechanism that is keeping me “safe”, but it’s keeping me separate from the very thing that I desire. So, so it’s just practice.

[00:14:21] But the other thing that I’ll say is to ask ourselves more questions and also have someone in our life that can ask us questions.

[00:14:31] Does this feel aligned for you if you were to engage in whatever the marketing strategy is, is there an adjustment that would feel more aligned for you that would utilize your strengths better?

[00:14:42] Mm-hmm . And so I find that curiosity and asking ourselves questions, but then really being honest with ourselves -“Is this something holding me back or is this really my true wisest self saying, yes, this is the next step forward.” Yeah. And it can get really [00:15:00] confusing.

[00:15:00] There are people that I go to therapist, coaches, friends, –

[00:15:04] Let me just share, you know, what I’m thinking, and can you reflect things back? Or can you ask me questions or can you reflect things back to me so I can hear it and, and then know, okay. Here’s my next step.

Miriam’s Wise Friend

[00:15:17] Miriam: Yeah. I think having a wise friend is super useful. I have a friend in my own life where I can share what I’m thinking or feeling about my next step.

[00:15:29] And she’ll ask some insightful questions and then she might say something like, ” this isn’t the Miriam I know talking. Mm-hmm. This feels like a lesser version of you. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes that really is surprising to me because in that moment I felt like I was, you know, yea, this is just how I feel or whatever.

[00:15:49] But if I can step back and look at myself from maybe above or a distance or whatever I can say,” yeah, that was me playing small.” Or [00:16:00] sometimes she’ll say,” are you sure that’s where you wanna go?” Mm-hmm. “Is this going to ultimately lead to what you want?” And just that question pauses me long enough to give me the ability to look at, you know, the Miriam of the past, the Miriam of now and the Miriam of the future.

[00:16:19] And I really like your word aligned. I, I want to see growth, but it has to be along a consistent trajectory. Yeah. And when you start doing things that are opposite of your internal sense of ethics- It never goes well, mm-hmm, , you know, I like that word aligned.

[00:16:39] You, you coach people in marketing, is that correct? Right, right.

Coaching Business Owners

[00:16:43] Angella: So I, I do a lot of teaching and I do coaching, so I do both. Okay. Okay.

[00:16:48] Miriam: How do you help someone when you see them perhaps playing small

[00:16:53] Angella:  there’s how I used to help people- I think it’s important to actually talk [00:17:00] about that and how I help people now is actually different.

[00:17:02]  how I used to help people is I would do a lot of the, the carrying of the energy. Like here’s the strategy, and I know you can do it. I would be the cheerleader, which it’s like, okay. On one hand, that sounds really great. Right? Yeah. But what I wasn’t asking, because I didn’t have this knowledge for myself.

[00:17:18] I wasn’t asking, like, do you actually feel safe to have this thing that you say you want. Mm, like, are you going to implode this later because it’s such a shock for your nervous system in the way that things have always been, you know?

What Are the Patterns?

And so, especially when I see similar patterns, like, if a person gets super close to launching a new program or opening the doors to a retreat or an event that they’re selling and, and they’re, you know, they’re sabotaging themselves or procrastinating or these different things that have these very, you know, sexy labels, but what’s underneath that is, –there’s a part of them that’s actually not too sure about this.

What are they going to do when they [00:18:00] have a full program? And now. They might feel responsible for leading all these people in this program. And that responsibility feels too scary. Mm-hmm .

[00:18:09] And so if someone’s not doing something like in their marketing or whatever, the, the checklist is, it’s, let’s ask some questions to find out what’s really going on.

[00:18:19] And what I, what I tell people is like, you cannot override your intuition with all the strategies, just like you cannot override strategies with intuition. Like there’s a blend here.

Making Choices That Are Congruent

[00:18:28] And when I say intuition is trusting yourself, Making the choices that are congruent and aligned for you.

[00:18:36] And sometimes I find that just giving things a little more space, like, you know, in, in running a business and in life in general, we’re in this hurry all the time.

[00:18:48] Yeah, for what like, where’s this imaginary finish line, you know? And, and so there’s this push and this urgency, and it’s like, what if we just slowed things down, gave yourself some more spaciousness [00:19:00] and really did it in a way that your brain can get on board, your nervous system can get on board and the support that you require can actually show up to support you.

[00:19:11] So I hope I answered your question. I went off in a couple different places.

[00:19:14] Miriam: No, you’re you’re okay. When you were talking, I had this image of like a cartoon where the cartoon is zipping in one direction, but part of it is like still back here. And so there’s this blur as the front part of him here and the back part is still there.

[00:19:34] And then it kind of snaps where the back part catches up to the front part. Mm-hmm

[00:19:39] I see people do that where a piece of them is they’re go getters and they’re whatever, and they’re just, they’re hard driving and they are gonna accomplish X.

[00:19:48] And a lot of times there are other pieces of them that are still left back behind them and it doesn’t necessarily go well.

Giving Space

[00:19:57] Miriam: So when you are talking about [00:20:00] giving space, what does that look like to the average person?

[00:20:04] Angella: Yeah, so. So I’ll use a business example and then I’ll use a life example. So in business, you know, there’s this urgency of, and, and it makes sense because we have to make money to pay our expenses. And it’s not like, well, I’m just gonna go on sabbatical every time I feel like I need to rest.

[00:20:21] Like, that would be great, but most people don’t have that kind of privilege to be able to do that. Right. And so it looks like instead of launching a program in a week, you give yourself 30 days and you have a longer period of time for marketing. And you don’t work on the weekends. Like you actually build rest time into your marketing strategy and, and that might look like also, maybe you hire some pieces out, maybe you, you know, do a trade with a friend or a colleague.

[00:20:50] Like there’s so many ways that if budget is an issue that you can get support but you have to be willing to receive support. So just giving yourself more time to actually you know, [00:21:00] launch or sell the thing that you’re selling now, that’s also a very specific example to more service based businesses.

[00:21:06] I mean, for manufacturing or if you’re selling, you know, widgets online, like I can’t totally answer that cuz that’s not the world I live in mm-hmm.

People Are Tired

[00:21:13] But another example of just giving yourself space and I, I think that this is a common theme, you know, at the end of this pandemic and everything that we’ve experienced collectively in the last couple of years, people are tired.

[00:21:27] Our nervous systems are spent. Our mental capacity, we’re just done. Yeah. And to give ourselves permission to not do all the things,

[00:21:37] and I also, I wanna acknowledge that, that also requires a lot of privilege. Like there’s some people who they don’t have time to rest because if they don’t work, then their family doesn’t eat.

[00:21:47] Yeah. Or they can’t pay rent. And so, so there’s a lot of privilege in that, what I just shared. And so. I always say, start where you are with what you have. Like, if it’s just taking a few minutes [00:22:00] to breathe, if it’s asking a, you know, a partner or spouse, a friend, Hey, I could really use some help with this because there’s this, this like this badge of honor that I feel like we wear of, like, I can do it all.

[00:22:13] And when told this, you can have it all. And I’m like, I don’t think we can. I don’t, you know, at least not at the same time, like, there are different seasons in life of that go- getter.

[00:22:24] And sometimes it’s just going to maintain what I have and I’m not going to go after all the things right now. Like, I’m just gonna enjoy simplicity.

Humans vs Machines

[00:22:34] Miriam: Yeah. I hear you using a lot of language that makes me think you’re talking about being human , you know, and just giving yourself the privilege to be a human being and not a machine. Yes. Yes. Cause we’re not at robots. Right.

[00:22:51] Angella: And I, I find that there’s this phrase that happens a lot in the personal development circles and spiritual circles of like we’re at.

[00:22:58] An infinite being or a divine [00:23:00] being in a human body or some version of that. And so when we have these very human experiences, then it’s like this moral failing almost of like, oh, I should have done better. I should have, you know, whatever. And it’s like, that’s part of what being a human is- is sometimes being human is really hard.

[00:23:22] There’s grief and there’s loss and there’s diagnosis and there’s health issues and there’s stress and there’s money challenges and all the things. And, and that’s part of human experience. Mm-hmm so I think it’s really important to, to find those pockets of joy.

[00:23:40] If I would look at the world and be quite overwhelmed with all of the problems and wonder why are we not doing. More to help people have food or the animals or the earth. Like those are some of my earliest memories. [00:24:00] And so you’re listening to this and you can relate with being a very like deeply feeling, highly sensitive person.

[00:24:06] I think, especially for us, we have to find those simple moments of joy because that’s what makes it worthwhile. Like that’s how we get through those moments where it just feels like too much. Yeah.

The Perspective of Joy

[00:24:21] Miriam: That is the point, not the six figures or the seven figures or the, whatever those things are, perhaps access points to the point.

[00:24:30] But the real point is joy

[00:24:32] mm-hmm and you actually can have joy, whether you have a job or not, it’s a matter of perspective. It’s a matter of how you look at things and it’s a matter of trusting that the universe is good and kind, and has good things for you. Mm-hmm mm-hmm you know,

[00:24:50]

[00:24:50] [00:25:00]

Beliefs of a Leader

[00:25:28] Miriam: so talk to me a little bit about your beliefs or actions regarding you as a leader.

[00:25:35] Angella: I started, you know, poking holes in these theories of if all the formulas worked then everyone should be making more money. They should be happier. They should be healthy. They should like, if the formulas worked, then why aren’t, why aren’t they working for more people?

[00:25:51] And so I started poking holes in the, in those theories and, and they got a lot of kickback, especially from the mentors that I paid a lot of money [00:26:00] to.

[00:26:00] They did not like that. I was raising some flags of like, I don’t think this is actually the way. This is like, something’s wrong here. Something is off here.

[00:26:10] And lo and behold, few years later, more and more people are talking about manipulative marketing practices.

[00:26:16] I think we are all leaders. I get this really like high pressured expectation of, to be a quote leader means I have to have a certain number of followers.

[00:26:28] My email list has to have this. I have to have this much money in the bank. I have to have this many, you know, many speaking gigs a year, whatever the things are, which that’s not, –

[00:26:38] that’s actually. Popularity. And that’s Mar like you have a marketing team making all that stuff happen. Right. And we see this, we see people who, you know, have the books and the stages, and, and they’re not necessarily saying anything that original.

[00:26:51] Right. And, and I don’t say that as a dig, it’s just a, a fact. Right.

It’s Not About How Many Followers You Have

[00:26:55] And, and then I see people who don’t have the followers and don’t have the big name and [00:27:00] the book deals. And they’re saying, and having conversations that need to be had, and saying brilliant things that are much more original.

[00:27:08] And so I say being a leader is first leading yourself, like doing the work necessary so that you are honest with what you desire and you build that capacity to actually create that without burning out mm-hmm and, you know, we can lead our families.

[00:27:28] We can lead our communities. We. Lead a child, but I also think that important and important distinction is sometimes leadership is viewed as this powering over people. And I, I think we see this antiquated old school form of leadership that way, when, what I, the leadership that I love is co-creating with people and letting every single person shine, not even letting creating the [00:28:00] space.

[00:28:00] Intentionally for every single person to shine and show up with their gifts and strengths with their unique ideas

[00:28:07] and this collaborating to create something far greater than if we were just trying to carry it all ourselves and quote, lead in an old traditional sense. .

[00:28:17] Miriam: Yeah, I think one thing that is difficult, both in business and in leadership circles is that there is a notion that to join in where other people are doing well and support their work is somehow less valuable than creating your own thing.

Planting Trees-One at a Time

[00:28:33] And I was thinking about a gentleman whose name, unfortunately, I don’t remember. In the heart of Africa 40 years ago just started changing the way he planted trees he lived on the edge of a desert and he just wanted to see if he could take the desert back. And so. He just planted trees after tree, after tree, after tree.

[00:28:53] And he created these Wells and he, he just did it differently than everybody else. And he didn’t trumpet about it. He just did it. [00:29:00] And I think a lot of people made fun of him at first. And then they noticed his trees were living and nobody else’s were, and he created this micro climate within this area.

[00:29:10] He created a whole forest. By being diligent to what he knew was true. And he just did it and did it and did it. And now 40 years later, people are coming and saying, show me how you did this. Yeah. So at some level he, he lived his life. He lived his truth. He did good in the world and he was steadfast and he didn’t necessarily need to multiply himself a hundred X.

[00:29:34] He just did. And now he is being multiplied a hundred X

Try it For Yourself

[00:29:38] Angella: mm-hmm mm-hmm . I know the story you’re talking about. I don’t remember the person’s name, but like, that’s a beautiful example of leadership and, and there’s a thought there of, of curiosity. And I’m just gonna try this out. Huh? I wonder what’s going to happen.

[00:29:53] Yeah. And, and doing it for yourself, first, which sounds opposite. If we’re here to, you know, [00:30:00] co-create and help people, but if it’s all about service and we pay the price with our own energy, our own, you know, life force, our family or health, then that’s actually not of service. We’re giving from a, a depleted place it’s like, fill yourself.

[00:30:15] First, fill your cup first and do it for yourself.

[00:30:18] Like I, I think about, you know, the messages that I shared it’s it’s I needed to hear the things I was saying, and I wasn’t hearing it anywhere else. Yeah. And, and there’s that moment of like, if it helps one other person great, but it helps me be a better person and trust the universe and trust myself and, and have joy, then that’s worth it too.

[00:30:40] Cuz now I can contribute in things that matter globally,

Putting on Your Own Mask

[00:30:44] Miriam: right now you’re putting on your own mask before you’re helping the people around you. Yeah. And you know, that is, I think absolutely what we need to be doing, working on it’s this interesting duality of taking [00:31:00] enough time to do the self care that allows you to multiply yourself and do the others’ care.

[00:31:06] Mm-hmm and anybody who gets it gets it really like a hundred percent and people who are confused by that idea, they haven’t experienced taking care of themselves yet because when you take care of yourself at a deep soul level, you have more joy and more energy and usually more money and more resources to help other people.

[00:31:31] Angella: Well, and I think about caregivers or activists, you know, people are burning out at alarming rates. Yeah. And on one hand, I get it because especially, you know, if it’s this activism and whatever the cause is, it’s like we have to do something about this.

Like, I don’t want this to take lifetimes for this to change. And there’s some things that it may take lifetimes.

[00:31:50] And that’s hard when you’re not seeing the impact with all of this work, you know, that’s happening. [00:32:00]

We Want Sustainable Change

[00:32:00] Being depleted and burnt out- we want sustainable change. We want sustainable care. And that means building in rest and building in. And again, I know that some can sometimes feel impossible when the demands of life are a mile long and we’re just keeping our, you know, afloat.

[00:32:19] But recognize that if we keep going at this level, whatever that level is like, can I do this in 10 years? Mm-hmm can I do this in a year? Like mm-hmm or am I going to be so resentful of this very thing that right now I’m passionate about, but I gave everything for it and I lost myself in the process.

[00:32:39] Miriam: I love you saying, can I do this in 10 years? Can I do this in a year? Are you living in such a way that you could and would want to, or are you burning more of the candle than is being poured back in?

[00:32:53] I also wanna just pick up on your comments- this cause may not be solved in my lifetime.

[00:32:59] And [00:33:00] actually probably most certainly won’t be, which is, disheartening at so many levels.

[00:33:06] At our nursery, trees are half off right now. And unfortunately we lost quite a few trees to a beetle and these trees were incredible. Like they were, I’m gonna go with 60 feet high.

[00:33:19] And I know they were 60 years old and so we lost five trees and we’re in the process of buying new trees to replace them

Planting Trees

[00:33:27] and we planted one last night and one the night before, and my son was asking me, you know, what are these gonna grow up to be? And how big and whatever. And I, I said, I don’t know, I will.

[00:33:38] I won. In my lifetime, it won’t happen.

[00:33:42] You know, we planted an Oak in one place and a ginko in another and I’m not gonna see them in my lifetime.

[00:33:49] They’re gonna grow somewhat, but they’re, I’m never gonna see them to maturity. And that is a mind blowing concept.

[00:33:57] And as we work toward these things that we’re [00:34:00] trying to change, You know, the building of a business, I think can happen within a lifetime, the changing of people’s ideas. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes that happens in a lifetime.

[00:34:13] How about the changing of our own ideas? Yeah. For how many decades did we believe? One thing and then circumstances in our life. Moved us a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. And we have this new space in us that says, “I wonder. I wonder about this or that,” .

Find Your End Game

[00:34:30] Angella: Well, and that is a mind blowing possibility to even like wrap your head around. I mean, someone asked me the other day was actually I’m working with the new financial planner and she said, well, what’s your, what’s your end game for your business?

[00:34:43] What’s the exit strategy and said, I have no idea. Like, you know, because tradition says, oh, you should sell it and you’re gonna do this thing. Or you need to do the train, the trainer model and train people in your methodology. And he. I don’t know, you know?

[00:34:58] And so there feels like this pressure [00:35:00] sometimes of what’s the legacy mm-hmm , this reminds me of when my, my father-in-law died, he died in May of 2020.

[00:35:08] And one of the, the last things he said to my husband was, and he’s a writer both my husband and my father-in-law.

[00:35:17] “So make sure my books get published because that’s my legacy.”

[00:35:20] And, and I thought, and when I heard that, I thought, why does this feel weird to me? Like what, what is this? And, and so I had this beautiful opportunity to have this conversation with this amazing man.

Your Legacy

[00:35:33] And I said, “Dad, your legacy’s not the books. It’s how you loved people. It’s how you loved people. Like you changed people. By seeing them, by honoring them, by just loving them.”

[00:35:48] He was a school teacher for years and he would still have students, you know, 30, 40 years later call him and say, Hey, here’s what I’m up to now.

[00:35:56] And I’m thinking what, like that is a [00:36:00] legacy of you genuinely loved people.

[00:36:04] And, and so I, I think about this pressure I put on myself, that I see my clients put on themselves, family members, friends, like I have to do these things in order to create a legacy or create a change.

[00:36:18] And while those things can be beautiful and absolutely life -changing you know, going back to what you shared of like, how do I treat an individual?

[00:36:27] And it just an, an everyday basis that no one is, is observing. Just me and this person. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:35] Like if I have the opportunity to leave someone better, am I doing that? You know? And like, what if, what if it could be that simple and like, that’s the most noble thing we can do?

[00:36:53] And, and I think that sometimes, like, that’s the only thing to do because , there are times and I felt it, especially in the last [00:37:00] few years of like these problems feel so big.

[00:37:04] And I, I feel so minuscule like this one person who’s, who’s, you know, screaming at, at the walls and no one’s listening and why aren’t we doing more? And, and that’s just not how change happens.

[00:37:17] Miriam: Yeah, Angela, that to me felt like a mic drop moment.

How to Find Angella

[00:37:22] I just, I can’t even imagine anywhere more important to go than how we treat people, how we treat individuals, how we show them love and that, that truly no matter what you’re in business or otherwise, that is our legacy is how we treated the people around us and how we showed them that they were loved and valued.

[00:37:45] I think with that, I wanna just transition out and give you the opportunity to tell people how to find you, where to find you, they wanna work with you.

[00:37:55] Angella: Yeah. Wonderful. So yeah, where to find me is Angela johnson.com. That’s Angela two [00:38:00] LS. And on Instagram, you can find me at Angela Johnson biz. You can find me there.

[00:38:04] So those are the two best places to reach me and got, you know, free trainings and different offerings for entrepreneurs.

[00:38:11] Miriam: Perfect. Yeah, perfect. So much. We’ll have all of that in the show notes. And as I mentioned before, we started, we like to gift as a thank you a donation in your name and you chose the the charity the nature Conservancy.

[00:38:25] And so we will be donating to the nature Conservancy in your name. And thank you for this time for blessing us with your wisdom.

[00:38:31] What a great conversation.

[00:38:34] Angella: Thank you and thank you for everyone listening for being here so I appreciate it. 

End Credits

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Music by Tom Sherlock.

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

 

Paul Attaway

[00:00:00] Miriam: I’m excited to have Paul Attaway here to speak with us today. He has had a diverse life and I’m really kind of happy to get into some of the various places.

Intro. Paul

[00:00:10] Miriam: He was an attorney for a several years. He spent a huge amount of time in Phoenix, Arizona at a certain point in time. He moved to the holy city in South Carolina, which I wanna hear more about that. You were a 30 year entrepreneur, you sold, raised and sold several businesses. You were a consultant. Then you transitioned into being a writer and there are so few people who can do that and be successful. So all of these are great topics for us to push into.

[00:00:44] Thank you for sharing your time and what did I miss or what do you wanna highlight?

[00:00:48] Paul: Thanks for having me on your show. I guess what you missed is what I failed to tell you, and that is along the way. My wife and I raised three F. Children now, young adults and we have two grandchildren as well. So those [00:01:00] are those were the most demanding task, but also the most rewarding.

Becoming an Attorney

[00:01:03] Miriam: Why don’t we start with some of the early spaces. What, what would you say caused you to get out of the attorney space?

[00:01:12] Paul: Actually being an attorney is what drove me out of being an attorney.

[00:01:16] The high school debate coach went to the sixth grade teachers and said of your kids moving to seventh grade, who do you think would be a good debater?

[00:01:25] And my name kept up. They kept saying this kid just won’t shut up. And so for the time I was basically seventh grade on, I was told, “you should be a lawyer.”

[00:01:35] I go to law school, I loved law school. And then I was actually an attorney. and you know, there’s a joke the only happy attorneys are judges and ex attorneys.

[00:01:46] So about 12 months into it, I realized there’s no way I could do this for the rest of my year. Now that being said, I do not regret for one moment, my legal career.

[00:01:56] It taught me to think very critically. Legal matters [00:02:00] don’t scare me. I’m able to assess them and go, this is important. This is not important. So great education. I don’t regret it, but I also don’t regret, you know, leaving the practice.

[00:02:13] Miriam: What was it like when you made that transition? I think many of our, my listeners are in midlife and they’re kind of saying, do I wanna do this for the rest of my life?

[00:02:23] And yeah, maybe I wanna go out into entrepreneurialism. maybe, Ooh, that feels scary. You know, talk about that transition.

How to Learn

[00:02:32] Paul: It was scary in that I was, I was, you know, going from something that basically for as long as I could remember, this is what I was going to do.

[00:02:41] And then you get there and you’re going, ah, I don’t wanna be here. So that’s, that’s disruptive

[00:02:46] my wife and I were recently at a dinner a couple nights ago. We were speculating. How many of us ended up where we saw ourselves when we were, you know, at that young age?

[00:02:57] So I think when I made that [00:03:00] transition, I had to take to heart something that we had preached to our children. And that is when they said, why do I need to learn this?

[00:03:07] We kept saying, you’re learning how to learn.

[00:03:09] The business of business can be figured out fairly quickly.

[00:03:13] At that point, then it takes a lot of hard work tenaciousness you know, good decision making along the way, but actually understanding business is, is both the hardest thing in the world to do and the easiest thing to understand- it’s just the execution that’s so difficult.

[00:03:30] So the transition was a bit scary, but once I kind of got into it, I realized, okay, I can learn this. I can learn how to do this. And then you, you know, then you apply yourself.

[00:03:40] Miriam: I appreciate the confidence that you knew. You could figure it out. And a thought leader that I really quite like says that “Confidence is not knowing everything- confidence is knowing you can figure it out.”

[00:03:53] Paul: You can figure it out.

Entrepreneur Mindset

[00:03:54] Miriam: And I do think that many entrepreneurs have that at their core, [00:04:00] whether they’re actually in business for themselves or not. I haven’t actually looked up the meaning of the word entrepreneur, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you have a business. It’s more of a mindset and it can become a business.

[00:04:12] Paul: I like that. I hadn’t thought of it in those terms, but I liked the way you put that. And the thought that popped into my head was. You know, we we’ve all read how young people today are gonna have, you know, 30 jobs- our parents had one or two, you know, this, this idea that you worked for one person

[00:04:30] you have to reinvent yourself again and again, and again.

[00:04:33] And so you, I don’t know what the definition of entrepreneur is either. I used to joke- It meant you were unemployable. And you had to create your own job. But I think that really, what I look at is, is problem solving. You have to learn how to solve problems, and you may be in an, have an entrepreneurial mindset and be a very valued employee within, within a company.

[00:04:55] So being an entrepreneur does not mean you have to go start your own business. I think [00:05:00] it’s simply how you approach whatever challenge you’re looking.

[00:05:04] Miriam: It’s a way of thinking.

[00:05:05] Paul: I found that that the legal practice there are, there are some aspects of it where you absolutely have to go and get expert help. Tax law, securities law, any sort of regulatory issue, environmental legal, et cetera. But I would sit down with people and they would be intimidated by the idea of drafting a contract.

Write it Down

[00:05:27] And I go don’t don’t don’t don’t don’t don’t just. Write down what you two agreed to just write it down and the exercise of having to write it down while actually crystallize your thinking. And you’ll find the things you probably ought to think about before you enter into it

[00:05:42] I think what really helped though was in law school, I learned how to read and write how to really read critically.

[00:05:50] And how to write, say what you mean, mean what you say and reduce it to as few words as possible.

[00:05:58] Miriam: That actually feels like good [00:06:00] parenting. Mean what you say and say what you mean and say it in those few words.

[00:06:04] Yeah it’s just possible.

[00:06:05] Paul: Yeah. Cause, cause they’re gonna throw it back at you. yeah.

First Time in Business

[00:06:09] Miriam: Tell me about the first business you got into

[00:06:12] Paul: I was an unhappy attorney and I was speaking to my father who was an entrepreneur.

[00:06:17] He was an engineer, started his own business. And if you remember, you could go through the Sunday edition of the newspaper and it’d be businesses for sale.

[00:06:26] So I found one and I sent the financials to my father to get his input, cuz he had bought and sold some small businesses along the way. And he was like, what in the world’s going on? You know, I paid for law school and I just said, dad, I’m miserable. And he goes, well, you owe me come to work for me. And that was when I said, all right, dad what is it exactly that you do?

[00:06:47] I mean, he manufacture building materials. And so I went to work for my father and I learned more in that five years. And so I, and it was, it was a great experience.

[00:06:59] And so [00:07:00] he he manufactured building materials, architectural standing sea model roofs. Metal treatments for flat roofs expansion, joint systems that accommodate movement, be it thermal and or seismic in buildings went to work for him in the process we met.

Learning From Mistakes

[00:07:16] I met a very, very smart man in Phoenix, Arizona, and we hired him. He had ideas on how to isolate structures from earthquakes. So long story short, I ended up buying the division from my father that I started for him in the field of seismic engineering and my partner and I went out on our own. We raised a little family and friends money and we started ended up starting two businesses together. We had a an unfortunate business breakup, a classic, you know case study on what can go wrong in a partnership. And. We ended up parting ways part of the business, there was simply no way I could do it without [00:08:00] him, because there, it was a specialty.

[00:08:02] And he was one of the few people in the world really out of a few dozen who really knew this. So I, I sold that division. The other part of the business. I was able to continue it on. And that business, we were isolating petrology equipment and high end microscopes from micro vibrations that would frustrate the operation of this equipment.

[00:08:22] These are microscopes that magnify images a hundred thousand times,

[00:08:25] I got burned out and I got burned out on that. I was traveling to Southeast Asia and Germany and, and and I, I sold that.

Real Estate

[00:08:32] And then later that year if you remember the, you know, the, the real estate world collapsed, particularly in places like Arizona. Yeah. And so I became a private real estate lender and I was introduced to a gentleman who understood how to value real estate and knew how to find the borrowers. And I knew how to raise money and sort of manage money.

[00:08:54] And so the two of us came together. We had really complimentary. Skill sets.

[00:08:58] In my first [00:09:00] partnership, I was younger and my my certified smart guy engineer was older. And the second partnership I was the older one and my new partner was younger. But I learned so much from my failed partnership that I sat down with him and I said Hey, we’re getting along great here.

[00:09:16] This is our honeymoon period here. These are all the things that could go wrong. And we hammered out a, a partnership agreement on the front end, so that about five years later. I was older and was ready to do things, some things different and differently, and he wanted to keep going.

[00:09:34] We had an agreement in place that allowed us to separate the business and, and buy each other out, et cetera. That was ended up being a successful exit for me. And he continued with the business and we’re still friends.

Navigating Business Partnerships

[00:09:49] Miriam: People that I have talked with have said any form of business partnership is like a marriage and you better wanna be spending that kind of time and you’re gonna have those kind of [00:10:00] misunderstandings.

[00:10:00] And you know, when you say, when you use the term, the first one was like a classic. Partnership breakup. Can you talk about basically what went wrong? Yes. You fixed those in the, the later version.

[00:10:16] Part of this podcast is practicality wisdom and practicality for business and life. And there are many people who are in partnerships that are struggling.

[00:10:29] And it doesn’t have to even be business. There are some common things to working together with another person and where they can go sideways and where they can really do well.

[00:10:39] Paul: Yeah. I’ll touch on some high level issues or some high level concepts.

[00:10:43] Okay. Communication. So I was you know, I was a successful, you know, high school and college debater, I could win any argument. You find out when you get into actual, meaningful relationships with people winning every argument- it’s not a [00:11:00] great way to, to go about.

[00:11:01] So I met a gentleman back in Phoenix, Arizona who became my life coach – he taught me that communication goes nowhere unless you have somebody who can actually listen to you. And so he talked about giving me the gift of listening Hmm. I call thinking out loud, but when, when, whether it’s a constructive process or you’re battling with somebody, if you can put ’em on hold when they start to talk, and you can say, hold on, what I think I hear you saying is, and then you, you repeat it.

Think Out Loud

[00:11:38] That does a couple of things. One, they get to hear what you heard and they go that’s, that’s not what I said this, oftentimes we hear what we want to hear. Yeah. And the person goes, that’s not what I said, or the person goes no, but I can see why you would think that. Yeah. So this process gets you to really break, break it down.

[00:11:58] And then [00:12:00] oftentimes instead of arguing with somebody, when they hear what they’ve just said, they may go well maybe that’s, you know, they may actually come back.

[00:12:08] So this, this process of communication of, of really listening to the other person, and if it’s volatile that people are angry and their feelings have been hurt, or they’ve misunderstood, this is a de-stressing process that can really pull people back from the ledge.

[00:12:25] And sometimes they just wanna be heard. The other person goes,” I had no idea that’s what you thought. Well, no wonder you’ve been so angry at me. I would’ve been angry too.”

Active Listening

[00:12:34] So this other half of communication, not just the talking, but the active listening, something that my.

[00:12:41] In my next partnership – we did this and it, it, there were times when, you know, he would be angry at me because I X, Y, and Z and vice versa. And when, and we’d come in and go, Hey, we gotta talk. And airing it went a long way.

[00:12:58] When you stop [00:13:00] talking to your partner, I guarantee you there’s something going on. And the longer that silence builds the taller those walls get you know, it’s kind of like nip it in the bud, have the hard conversations as soon as you can. Cuz if you don’t, you’re going to, and they’re gonna just be even harder. I have learned over the years is just, you gotta, you gotta be able to listen to other people.

Similarities in Business Relationships and Other Relationships

[00:13:25] Miriam: Yeah, that’s well spoken and that holds true in business partnerships and in marriages and in friendships and parents and children and the whole nine yards -humanity. Yep.

[00:13:37] If you can’t listen, well, you’re gonna misunderstand and you’re gonna destroy the relationship for sure.

[00:13:44] Paul: It is. And, and in the world, in which we live, that’s dominated by cable news and social media- social media is the absolute worst way to resolve a conflict because basically speaking has become [00:14:00] a way of attacking and no one ever hears what the other person says.

[00:14:05]

Family Business

[00:14:43] Miriam: You worked for your dad. And you your brother was also involved, a lot of entrepreneurs hire family members.

[00:14:52] What can be done to help avoid pitfalls – the word on the street is don’t hire family, don’t

[00:14:58] hire family members. Right. [00:15:00] Right. So, but

[00:15:00] everybody does because they actually trust those people and that’s who they know. And blah, blah. Yeah.

[00:15:07] Paul: Well, that’s why there’s a whole cottage industry out there of dealing with family businesses.

[00:15:12] From the consulting to the therapeutic, to the business, breakups, dealing with family businesses, they are both the best and the worst of all businesses. And course also depends upon the size of your business. If you’re talking about a five to 10 person office and you’ve got two or three family people that that’s a whole different dynamic, if you’re talking about a, you know, you know, a billion dollar enterprise and your third generation family, that’s a whole different situation.

[00:15:40] There’s the, there’s the advice: Never hire someone you can’t fire. Yeah. And it’s hard to fire family members, so there’s a reason not to hire them. Okay. But that doesn’t happen cuz we, we don’t heed that advice cuz we think that our families are strong enough or et cetera, et cetera. We can, [00:16:00] we can overcome that. Okay.

Give Them Time 

[00:16:02] Then I think a practical bit of advice would be don’t hire them right out of school. Don’t have it be their first job. They need to go, you know, they need to go learn how to work elsewhere and develop those habits and gain some confidence in what they’re doing. And then they, then when they come back in, they’re not necessarily the boss’s kid, they’re still the boss’ kid, but they just spent X number of years over here.

[00:16:29] But they come right into the business. It’s not only tough on them. It’s tough on the parent. Some of the employees are not gonna be happy about it.

[00:16:38] Miriam: Yeah, I would agree too, as someone who has done coaching with numerous companies who have hired relatives, I’ve watched the, “I can’t fire them- they’re my spouse. They’re my kid. They’re my brother. They’re my cousin.” And it is problematic. Yeah.

[00:16:56] And. Sometimes, eventually [00:17:00] they end their working relationship. There’s a lot of hurt feelings. The business does do better.

[00:17:06] Yep. And What can I say, family gatherings are pretty awkward.

[00:17:10] Paul: Yes they are. Yeah. Yeah.

The Risk of Working with Family

[00:17:11] Miriam: And many of the other ones I have watched for years and years, and they will not, even though this other person is really sabotaging their company culture or their bottom line, their revenue stream, whatever they won’t get rid of ’em.

[00:17:27] Yeah. And it’s very difficult to move forward. It just, yeah.

[00:17:30] Paul: And in those, those extreme toxic situations, You know, the, the, the business world for them is simply the platform put upon which all their other issues are playing out. You know, this isn’t the, the the business troubles are simply a symptom.

[00:17:47] You know, the, the repercussions of the fact that. They can’t stand answering to this person or, or what other, whatever other dysfunction is going on. Yeah. And yeah. And I would agree. Yeah. You need a [00:18:00] family therapist. You don’t need a business coach in that situation.

[00:18:04] Miriam: no, it’s so true. I actually am a family therapist and that’s what I, that’s part of my, you put two hats on.

[00:18:10] Yes. I’ll say sometimes you need this one and sometimes you need this one and I can do both. But yeah, this is not where your MBA is gonna help you out, right. In that particular instance.

Becoming an Author

[00:18:21] Miriam: So let’s transition into your writing career. One of the things that I hear from so many people is that they have a book inside them I wanna hear a little bit about how you helped you be disciplined enough to finish a book? Yeah. And then how did you make that transition from letting it be your livelihood?

[00:18:42] That’s a, that’s a scary cliff to jump off.

[00:18:44] Yeah, no,

[00:18:44] Paul: it is. In 2015, 2016 is when my partner and I separated and I needed a break. I was, I was exhausted. And we had just become empty nesters. So my wife was really hoping that I wouldn’t [00:19:00] wanna start another business. And it was a very easy promise to make. I said, honey, don’t worry. I’m not doing that again. I was, I was tired. But I, I didn’t wanna do nothing. I couldn’t do nothing.

[00:19:09] So I became a consultant. An executive for hire. And I found that I didn’t really enjoy it. After you’ve been the boss for all those years, it’s exceedingly difficult to just, I mean, I just couldn’t do it

[00:19:23] I’d finish a book and, and sometimes I’d go, that was a fantastic book. Wow. What a great book, or I’d finish a book or I’d put one down and go, that’s terrible, I could do better than that. And so I think my wife, I joke she got sick and tired of hearing me say it. And she says, well, either write the book or just shut up about it.

Do It Yourself

[00:19:39] So I read, I read books on how to write books.

[00:19:41] I read blogs and how to write books. And I had a stack of legal pads, you know, this high of all these ideas, all these ideas. I would walk up the street about six or seven blocks to this very cool old library.

[00:19:54] And so I would sit in the library and literally day one, you know, I’m, I’m staring at the [00:20:00] blank sheet and I had no idea what I was doing and it, like, I had no idea. So I, I met, I met we were introduced to some people living there and this gentleman was older than. And he had had a, a very full career as a film editor.

[00:20:15] And so I, I share with him that I’m trying to write a book and he he knew a thing too about story. And he said, quit trying to write a book. You’ll never do it. If you’re trying to write it from beginning to end, it’s never gonna happen. He said, just write. Just write scenes. Just write and it will happen.

[00:20:36] And then you can stitch the story together later. So I said, okay.

[00:20:40] So I went back to library the next day and, and I just started and I had an idea or two and I just, and, and he was right. So I committed myself. And it was about eight months later that I, I finished my first book.

[00:20:55] Miriam: Wow. Really? It’s almost like a pregnancy.

Low-Pressure Writing

[00:20:57] Paul: We were in a position to where I didn’t have to [00:21:00] feed the family. With proceeds from book sales. So I didn’t have that hanging over my head. That would be an entirely, just different decision process. For me, I was fortunate. I didn’t need to go right out and find another paying job. I could take this risk and I’m, I’m glad I did.

[00:21:23] When I sat down and I write the second book, I at least knew that I could write a book.

[00:21:28] So that was, that was good. I had, and the second book it’s a sequel to the first book, but I wrote it so it’s a standalone book. I had some characters developed. So I had, I had a bit of a, a launching pad.

[00:21:39] Yeah. The first book I joked that I was about a third of the way through it and I go, this is boring. So I had to, I had to kill somebody, so killed someone and now we have a murder. And so it became more interesting, I think, after that.

[00:21:52] So the books are there’re suspense, thrillers, family dramas, you know, set in Charleston, South Carolina in the [00:22:00] 1970s.

[00:22:01] When I sat down to, to get into this writing I read a lot of books and on how to, how to write a book. And I have a style. But storytelling, I think is something that you can learn and you can get better at it. And so a lot of, you know you know, a good story, you know, there’s, you need, what’s called an inciting event, you know, you’ve got your characters and then something happens to them.

[00:22:26] So I focus on, on building a story with hopefully meaningful character arc.

Using Books to Escape

[00:22:33] Miriam: Yeah, you write them the way you can and that’s what makes your work identifiable as being written by you, just like an artist paints their way and yeah. Yeah. What do you, what, what would you like to in your mind accomplish by writing these books?

[00:22:53] Paul: I’d say a couple of things. I write fiction. I would hope that it would be escapism. [00:23:00] That you’re going to read the book and you’re going to go, wow, that was a fun. You know, I enjoyed that ending. That was wow. I didn’t see that coming. So just simple escapism.

[00:23:12] I think at the same time though you know, I have a worldview and some of my characters share my worldview. And and so, you know, my worldview is, is Christ- centered. Now I don’t beat people over the head with that. At least I try not to, but I try to show real life characters that are very flawed. That are challenged by the, by their children, their spouse, their career, whatever bad thing happens to them that they’re not perfect. They’re not holier-than-thou, but how it is that they you know learn to trust through that process.

[00:23:49] So I I want people to enjoy the, the the escapism. But I might take a little liberties to just sort of show maybe what I feel about [00:24:00] something through my books. Yeah.

Find Paul’s Books

[00:24:01] Miriam: I love it. Why don’t you just share the titles and where people can get them? Yeah.

[00:24:06] Paul: So the first book is called Blood in the Low Country and the blood is because one, there is a murder, but two it’s about family and blood is family.

[00:24:15] And the second book, which just came out this year in May, is called Eli’s Redemption. And it is a bit of a sequel though. Again, it’s a standalone.

[00:24:25] . So my name is, is Paul Attaway and you can find them on you know, Amazon, the evil empire.

[00:24:32] And you can go to my website, Paul attaway.com. And then I’m on I’m on Instagram and Facebook

[00:24:38] Miriam: Very good. I appreciate the time and your wisdom. You gave some great practical tips and, you know,

[00:24:45] going along with that vein of story, I think I mentioned to you before we got on that. We like to do a gift in your name to a charity and you chose Mercy Ships and their story is remarkable as they have doctors and dentists and [00:25:00] physical therapists volunteering their time giving underserved people, surgeries for free.

[00:25:06] Yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you. Thank you for your choice with that and thank you for your time and what a joy to meet you.

[00:25:13] Paul: Well, thank you. I very much enjoyed it.

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Music by Tom Sherlock.

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