Tina Greenbaum

[00:00:00] Miriam: All right today. I am so excited to have with us. Tina Greenbaum. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate your time. You have a coaching company- Mastery Under Pressure. You’re working with high performing executives, mastering their interpersonal and inter -departmental. Skills. So you’re a licensed psychotherapist and a professional sports psychology consultant.

[00:00:23] And I’m excited to hear you explain how being good at your profession doesn’t necessarily make job. You’ve also written a book Mastery Under Pressure. We’re gonna get into all of that. Welcome to the leave better podcast.

[00:00:37] Tina: Thank you. Thanks so much, Miriam. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:41] Miriam: So before we get into the meat of things, if you don’t mind, just telling me a little bit about your backstory, kind of orient us around who you are and where you spend your time and energy.

[00:00:50] Tina Intro.

[00:00:50] Miriam: Okay. So okay. So who am I? I love that question. cuz I’m very, I have many different roles professionally.

[00:00:58] Tina: I am a licensed clinical [00:01:00] social worker. I’m really a social worker, you know, it’s, it’s the basis of social work is the interface between the person and their environment. And so I have a mission statement that in order to change, you know, your company, everything else, you need to ch you need to work on yourself.

[00:01:18] And so I. I love the combination. I’m a, I’m a connector at heart. And I, I see all the different pieces that, that people including myself need to work on. So I started out working. My first job was working on an eating disorders unit at the Washington hospital center in Washington, DC. And I tell the story that they, nobody had ever treated eating disorders before.

[00:01:40] This is almost 40 years ago and they handed us a manual and it said eating dis, it said, alcoholism. Crossed it out and put eating disorders and then they said, there you go. And I just finished doing a TEDx talk. I don’t know about you, but I really like being successful and I wasn’t being successful.

[00:01:59] I used to [00:02:00] say to the young women, I hear you. But I don’t feel you. And if I don’t feel you intuitively, I knew that you weren’t gonna change.

[00:02:07] Because the body holds all the memory and this combination of the mind and the body do work together. And my traditional therapy training was, I was like a talking head. But I wasn’t being successful in changing. And so my first job was at a I mean, my first clue to getting below the neck was at a yoga class where I was in the state of Shivasina.

[00:02:28] And you know, that, that pose where you’re just at the end of a class and, and my body was so quiet. My mind was so clear and I said, wow, if I could just get these young women to do this, maybe they wouldn’t need their eating disorder. Because in my experience, all addictions are anxiety based. And so if I could quiet down the anxiety, perhaps they could, you know, they could change.

[00:02:48] So my whole career has really been about how do I get under the conscious mind? And so all the trainings that I’ve taken have that in common. You know, EMDR[00:03:00] tapping integrated caballistic healing matrix, energetics.

[00:03:04] I had breast cancer and I created a program called cancer dancer, and I love experiential work. So every time I’d get through a. A portion of my journey. I could then teach it. Couldn’t teach it before and I couldn’t teach it during, but I could teach it afterwards.

[00:03:21] And then. Started working with my husband who teaches tennis. And he had a young player who would said to him, you know, my husband said to him, he says, you gotta go out there.

[00:03:29] You gotta be aggressive. You gotta be confident. And I said, that’s great. I said, he just doesn’t have a clue how to do it. Yeah. But I know how to teach him how to do it. So that started this Tennis to the Max and then that evolved into Mastery Under Pressure, where I moved into working with business people and leaders and all kinds of.

[00:03:49] Miriam: Wow. It’s like somebody’s life in four minutes or less.

[00:03:53] Your training initially was with people who were on the opposite end of that pendulum mm-hmm . And what [00:04:00] sort of things did you have to change in your mindset to be able to change who you’re working with?

[00:04:07] Mindset Shift

[00:04:07] Tina: Well, it’s a great question because. One of the very first things, you know, anybody that gets into this field and that’s really good at it. You have to have a level of emotional intelligence. You have to be empathic and empathic means I can jump into your shoes and I can see the world from your point of view, which is a great trait to have, except you can get swallowed up in it.

[00:04:28] Yes. If you’re not, if you, if you’re not careful about your boundaries. And so I had a. A supervisor very, very early on in my training. And she said, oh, Tina, she said, you’re never gonna survive. And she said, if you’re in the problem with your client, you are absolutely no good to them. Cuz now you’ve got two people that are just as depressed and nobody helping nobody helping the other one.

[00:04:50] And so I never forgot that. Not with my kids, not with my clients, not with whoever I work with. I always have to be outside of the problem. so that I [00:05:00] can see the issue in a way that I can help them find the path. Yeah. So it really didn’t matter who I was working with because as you started saying this very beginning, we all have a backstory.

[00:05:12] And so when I started to recognize no matter who you were. No matter how high up you were, no matter how successful, no matter how much money you made, you know, we all have a story.

[00:05:22] Nobody escapes life. Right. And so as I began to start to see no matter who you were, no matter how down you were, there was always this gem that you had, not yet. ignited Yeah. You know, and if I could help you to do that, then you’re on your way.

[00:05:39] Miriam: There you go.

[00:05:40] Sports Psychology

[00:05:40] Miriam: So jump in with the piece about the sports psychology and the high performers, because there are, there seem to be many links between those two things.

[00:05:49] Tina: Yes I have three sons and my two younger ones were very, very competitive soccer players. And my youngest one went really pretty far. He, he was, had the [00:06:00] potential to be a professional player. And so I used to say, I don’t know a lot about soccer, but I know a lot about psychology and when I would watch them.

[00:06:07] Particularly, you know, it’s, it’s the end of the end of a match and you know, it’s zero, zero. And my son is in front of the goal, you know, kicking a, a penalty kick. I don’t need to teach him how to kick. He knows how to kick, you know, it’s the mental side, like, what does he need to know in order to be able to manage this high stress situation?

[00:06:28] And so, because in soccer actually, You know, the person who’s kicking the ball should, should win because the goal is much bigger than the, than the goalie. And so I started to kind of study sports psychology, and I said, wow, focus, relaxation, you know, dealing with negative self talk, how to visualize, dealing with fear.

[00:06:48] These are all things that are part of my bandwidth you know, getting into that deep state of meditation, which is what I was talking about before. And so. Sports psychology in its essence [00:07:00] is really spiritual work. So there is no difference. Really it’s really learning how to be in the moment, how to quiet down those thoughts.

[00:07:09] It was just a very natural mix for me, cuz it didn’t matter if you were a high pressured athlete or a corporate leader. I lived in DC for a long time. So I dealt with the lawyers.

[00:07:19] You know, heavy duty, high powered lawyers and big egos and I mean, just crazy, crazy stuff. And then living in New York with actors, dancers, performers, you know, you’re in New York, you’re competing

[00:07:33] in a Broadway show or, you know, as a ballet dancer, you’re at the peak, this is the Olympics. It doesn’t get any bigger than this. Yeah. So all these things are, are all transferable skills in my mind. And so it doesn’t matter if it’s women with eating disorders and working with the things that tennis players need to know and so on, but the inner game.

[00:07:56] It’s all the same.

[00:07:57] Truth is Truth

[00:07:57] Miriam: It’s the same. I love that. You’re saying [00:08:00] this because the inner game is the same. I was telling someone the other day I work mostly with business owners and I was saying, you know, it is, it’s a game. It is a game with actual rules. And so much of what I think about these veins of thinking are if you follow the road, they all lead back to the same place.

[00:08:21] Tina: Absolutely. They do like truth is truth. And then truth is truth. You know, you dress it up in whatever kind of clothing is right for that particular discipline.

[00:08:29] I would really like to hear more about how you help people with their negative self talk.

[00:08:35] I have something on my YouTube channel. It’s, it’s a series about this and it’s called positive thinking is highly overrated. And you might think that’s a little crazy, but when you think about changing your thoughts to something like, , I’m gonna make a million dollars.

[00:08:51] The affirmations where you’re repeating something. But there’s another part of you that’s quietly saying, no, you gotta be kidding. Mm-hmm that’s not really not [00:09:00] gonna happen. Mm-hmm so if we’re not careful and we don’t really know the whole piece, there’s a part that may sabotage that positive thinking.

Productive Thinking

[00:09:09] So I like to call it productive thinking. Yeah. Do my thoughts produce something useful for me? Let’s just say. I’m getting ready to give this, this talk with you. And I say, God, you know, I’m really tired. And I had a really didn’t sleep well last night. And I don’t know if I could do this and well, just by the sound of my voice and the energy level that I have, I need to ask myself, I need to tune in first.

[00:09:40] Right. And you know this from, from your work as well. Awareness is everything. Yeah. How am I talking to myself? Yeah. Well, is this talk gonna take me to a good interview? No, I don’t think so. Okay. So how can I change it? What do I need to do to shift [00:10:00] those, those words? To give me the energy that I need to be able to do?

[00:10:04] Well, what’s the good news about doing this. I love doing this. Hmm. I absolutely love doing it. I love these conversations and yeah, maybe I didn’t get great sleep last night, but the adrenaline, you know, can pull me through and I can rest later and so on so no matter what the negative thought is, there is a way, if you take a moment to tweak it and twist.

[00:10:27] Miriam: Sure. That’s kind of how I deal with it. I agree entirely. And I’m gonna ask you to elaborate a teeny bit more because what I find with most people is that they’re not even aware of what they’re thinking. And so there’s this step before. How do you change your negative thinking to how do you even hear your negative thinking?

Awareness is Everything

[00:10:47] Tina: So you’re absolutely right. Awareness is everything.

[00:10:50] And the definition for mindfulness is being aware in the present moment without judgment.

[00:10:59] . The [00:11:00] body gets trigger. Before the mind. We have 175 milliseconds from the time and event happens until the time that we’re aware that it happens. It’s like half of a blink of an eye.

[00:11:11] Yeah. So if you want to change, the first thing that you wanna do is you wanna notice soon as you start to get triggered, what does it feel like when you get criticized by your boss? Well, my body tightens up. That’s your signal.

[00:11:28] There it is.

[00:11:29] That’s your signal. So the way that I, do it, it goes cut, reframe response. So cut means soon as you notice it, stop just. I liken it kind of like it to a movie. Yeah. You know, and you’re slowing down the movie frame by frame, by frame. Okay. Now we can see what’s happening. Okay. Then the next step is notice , notice the thoughts and the feelings that are running through the body.

[00:11:57] Again, just like you’re slowing down that movie. [00:12:00] And then lastly is respond. Choose to respond differently. You have an option rather than reacting in that same old, way.

[00:12:07] Take Time to Pause

[00:12:07] Miriam: Absolutely. You’re speaking my language. I say stuff like this too. I think that one of the challenges that I have had with the people I work with is that they’re very busy and they live at a very fast pace and getting them motivated.

[00:12:21] To pause.

[00:12:22] For anybody interested in this topic deeper besel VanDerKolk has a book called The Body Keeps the Score. Yes. It’s pretty technical, but it talks about how this stuff lives in our body. If we wanna catch our thoughts, we have to catch what’s happening within us.

[00:12:38] And then you’re off to the races because wow. We don’t realize the terrible things we think about ourselves and. Those things keep us squished down into smaller versions of ourselves.

[00:12:51] I wanna shift a little bit. That was fantastic. How can people recognize when they’re in or out of focus?

Focus

[00:12:58] Tina: I might be sitting [00:13:00] here. And I’ve got a list of things that I, that I’m wanting to do or needing to do. And I’ll say to myself, you’re all over the place. Mm. You know, you’re not doing this, you’re not doing that. You’re getting distracted. You know, you’re looking at your mail. Again, so the whole thing that we’re talking about, Miriam, more than anything is awareness.

[00:13:22] Yeah. You can’t change anything if you’re not aware. So how quickly can you start to tune in to what’s happening in here? When you do this work and you do it over and over and over again, you have neural pathways that you have created that bypass a lot of the same old, same old stuff.

[00:13:41] So it’s not like I don’t get distracted cuz I do. I just catch it pretty quickly. And so once I catch it, then I start to have an antidote.

[00:13:51] I took a, a wonderful course. It was called the neuroscience of the flow state. And again, it’s peak performance

[00:13:57] but basically when we [00:14:00] talk about flow and, and, where everything is clicking for you and, and, you know, time expands actually.

Hyperfocus

[00:14:06] Most of us think that it’s a hit or miss kind of situation, but it actually, you can train yourself

[00:14:12] when you’re hyperfocused, your dopamine level is very, very high.

[00:14:17] You can only kind of do that, honestly. 90 minutes. You know, some people two hours maybe at tops.

[00:14:25] So the way I plan my day those things that require me to think to really, really think or write or that hyper focus I’m gonna do early in the morning. .

[00:14:34] We wanna be hyper focused when we’re doing this concentrated work, then we wanna do the opposite. We wanna let the mind wander. You know, when you’re in the shower or you’re gardening or you’re walking and oh, ah, I could do this.

[00:14:48] Oh I, and so the creative mind gets an opportunity. The right brain gets an opportunity cause there’s different hormones now that are starting to kick in and then we can go back to work.

[00:14:59] . And we’re gonna have that [00:15:00] much better concentration. And then we need another one of those breaks. So for people who are, , these high power.

[00:15:06] I don’t have time. I don’t have time. Every single minute, is scheduled. They’re working against their own peak potential. , because we can’t function at that level over long periods of time.

Take a Break

[00:15:18] Miriam: I would agree. They think that they can, but if you actually look at their performance, they do better

[00:15:24] if they just take a tiny break, you have to kind of find your own rhythm, is it every hour? Is it every hour and a half?

[00:15:30] I have people ask me constantly, will I do two hour sessions? And I say, no,

[00:15:35] And they’re like, well, we’ll pay you X amount or whatever. And I say, no, no, it isn’t how I like to work.

[00:15:39] My brain wants to work this amount of time. And then it wants a break. Right? And I’m happy to meet with you two days in a row, but I am not happy to meet with you two hours in a day. I can do it, but it’s just not my favorite.

[00:15:52] Tina: I just had a fabulous interview with a guy who is works for Deloitte big financial firm. Now he has a little opportunity to look [00:16:00] back.

[00:16:00] And he said, I was saying all the time I was doing it for them. I was working 12, 15 hours a for them. He said, but no, I was really driven by me. Yeah. You know, thinking that this is what I needed to do in order to be successful. And he said it had consequences.

[00:16:55] Self-Sabotage in Mindset and Behavior

[00:16:55] Miriam: What are the ways you see people self sabotaging themselves, [00:17:00] either in their mindset or in their behaviors?

[00:17:02] Tina: Earlier in my career and I was seeing people all over the board, so just all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds.

[00:17:09] and so the level of awareness was less mm-hmm I believe that what we’re talking  good mental health is not a natural sport. It’s a learned sport. Yeah. We learn a lot from our parents, but I know that your parents or my parents never had this kind of training that you were already talking about.

[00:17:27] Right. So my parents came from the school of, of common sense and hard knocks and they, and that took us a long way. But my mother, God bless her didn’t have a mean bone in her body, but she was a master manipulator and she could triangulate the family.

[00:17:43]  I wanna ask my father something, I’d go ask my mother and she’d go through my father and you know, all these different kinds of things that we know now as trained professionals. Get into get us into trouble. Yeah. And so just like a good business, a good business. If you have this going for you and not going for you and [00:18:00] your numbers are good and your marketing and your sales and your, it, it works.

[00:18:03] It works. Yeah. And it’s the same thing. Like a human being. You know, when we have our boundary set straight and we know how to communicate, and we have this level of awareness and we have a level of authenticity and, and we work, you know, again, it’s, it’s like they say an AA, you know, the program works if you work it and it, and it does.

[00:18:23] So when I’m seeing people who are just not as educated in this field, they have more work to.

[00:18:30] When you don’t have the level of awareness, you walk into your own mess, you walk into situations and you don’t even realize it. And, and you really don’t have the skill to get yourself out. Yeah, until you go to school in some way, it could be the school of hard knocks, you know, and, and, and run up against something over and over again, which raises your level of awareness, which then you decide I need to, I work on this.

[00:18:52] Blind Spots

[00:18:52] Tina: We all have blind spots. Yeah. Wouldn’t you like to know yours because everybody else knows though.

[00:18:58] Miriam: Oh my goodness. Yes. If [00:19:00] only we could get people to tell us kindly in a way that we could hear.

[00:19:04] People do sometimes tell us, but they tell us in anger

[00:19:08] I was thinking about. This morning I was doing an equine session.

[00:19:13] The horses are honest and they tell you. What your blind spots are.

[00:19:18] And it’s fascinating to have someone say, oh my gosh, you, we talked about this in the office. Now I understand right, right. Because they had an experience within themselves and they could see their ineffective behaviors at play.

[00:19:34] Tina: Yes.

[00:19:34] The Three I’s

[00:19:34] Tina: So I think in terms of how we sabotage the way it shows.

[00:19:39] Is, we hit up against a wall mm-hmm , whatever that wall is, it could be our relationships. You know, our kids might be really mad at us or we’re drinking too much, or we’re smoking too much marijuana or we’re not coming home at night or we’re working 18 hours a day, or it could be any number of things.

[00:19:57]  I have, I have a little. Way [00:20:00] that I look at the, the process of transformation mm-hmm and it’s I call it the three I’s.

[00:20:05] Insight

[00:20:05] Tina: So you start out with Insight, which is kind of what we’re talking about. It’s raising this level of awareness. Oh yeah. I see the patterns.

[00:20:13] People think that there might be so many things wrong with them. There’s not, there’s only a couple patterns that we just repeat over and over and over and over and over again.

[00:20:20] Implementation

[00:20:20] Tina: The next I call is Implementation.

[00:20:23] Now we’ve got new skills that we implement into these areas as we notice, oh, I used to do it this way. Let me try this. Let me try this. Let me try this. And I call that the long haul. That’s really where the behavior change really happens. Yeah. And it takes time. We call it self sabotage, but you, and I know that the defense mechanisms that we create, we created for a good reason.

[00:20:48] Miriam: Absolutely.

[00:20:49] Tina: They were survival mechanisms and they will not. Will not just go away and disappear. That’s why the self-loathing just doesn’t work. Cuz all you’re doing is doing what was done [00:21:00] to you as a kid. You know, I hate, hate that. I hate when I do that or oh, you know, hear parents, you know, criticizing you.

[00:21:07] So we have to be able to have compassion for that. Part of us understand the purpose that it’s serving because all behavior has a positive intent. It’s all intended to protect us in some way or another. Yeah. So it’s a dance, there’s a part of us that’ll give, you know, let us do something and then it won’t, and then we negotiate.

[00:21:29]  The unconscious needs to trust that this new behavior is gonna take care of us in a way that the old behavior did when we were kids.

[00:21:36] Integration

[00:21:36] Tina: And then, and the last thing is, is Is Integration where it becomes second nature.

[00:21:41] Miriam:  Was gonna guess that was your third “I”- integration. Yes.

[00:21:44] One of the things that you mentioned earlier you still have this issue or this issue, but you just catch it quicker. I think that the longer you spend watching yourself looking at these patterns, looking for the self-growth spaces, The [00:22:00] more quickly, you are able to absolutely notice you notice the subtle things and you’re like, this is going to happen.

[00:22:08] I can tell I am headed this direction. And then you can take action on that. And it doesn’t have to be the same episode, you know, it’s, I know there’s some shows that are basically the same episode over and over and over. They just change the people’s clothes or the person’s name it’s like. It doesn’t have to be that way.

[00:22:26] But also you were talking about this power of transformation. And I guess I, I wanna throw in there that not everybody transforms. You have to actually want it just because you’re on the day on the planet another day doesn’t mean you’re going to be wiser. It takes effort to yes.

[00:22:46] Bring about what you’re talking about.

[00:22:48] It Takes Effort

[00:22:48] Tina: It does. And the other thing that I, I really wanna put a plug in for, sometimes we feel like we want to do it and we just can’t. Yeah. And things like [00:23:00] depression or anxiety or, you know, bipolar disorder or things that are real that have a chemical base to it. That we’ve had so much shame around.

[00:23:11] When you haven’t been able to move forward and you’ve tried this and you’ve tried the things that you and I are talking about and they still don’t work. That means that there’s something else that’s going on that has not yet been addressed.

[00:23:23] Yes. And so I, I, I really, I just had a conversation with somebody who was talking about his, his you know, 30 year old daughter and the issues that she was having and you know, in school and in a master’s program and couldn’t get out of bed and. I said, we gotta make sure that that medication is really working or, or she can’t stop thinking about something or we have to make sure that she, you know, the OCD may be, may be in there.

[00:23:47] So this is the time now that we have the privilege to talk about that these things go on. Yeah. And would just encourage people don’t give up because there are answers. These things are treatable.

[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Everything, you know, this is a holistic approach, mind, body, spirit, and emotion,

[00:24:05] Miriam: I appreciate that hope because a lot of times it’s easy to get down on yourself while I’ve tried and I’ve tried and, and this hasn’t shifted and I appreciate you saying, well, we’re not done yet.

[00:24:15] There’s still more to, to push into.

[00:24:18] Starting and Owning a Business

[00:24:18] Miriam: You are a business owner and mm-hmm what would you say has surprised you about owning a business and, and working with people?

[00:24:25] Tina: Okay, so I have started five private practices.

[00:24:29] Mm-hmm all those places that I mentioned that I moved to I started over because it wasn’t until the last move. When I moved out to California, that the internet could come with me. Yes, as I could bring my clients with me online. So I got really good at starting private practices. I got divorced in 2004, 2005. And I knew that if I didn’t scale my business, I could never retire. Cuz that was just one on one, you know, just me.

[00:24:57] So I started taking [00:25:00] business coaching courses.

Five Year Plan

[00:25:02] I walk into one training at one point and this very, very wise business strategist said to me, so what’s your five year plan.

[00:25:11] My my five year plan. I mean, I don’t know, I, this looks like the next best thing to do. I realized that there was a lot that I didn’t know.

[00:25:20] One of my friends said to me, she said, don’t ever take a coaching, you know, sign on with a coach without getting three really good live referrals.

[00:25:30] Not necessarily just their testimonials on their website, but really getting live referrals. Mm-hmm of people that have successfully gotten to a place where that person said that they could take them. Mm.

[00:25:41] I’m not great at the financial, you know, projections and the planning. And I don’t, I don’t have an MBA, but I needed an MBA. I needed that person who could look at the numbers in a way that I can, if you explain it to me, I can get it, you know, but that’s not my, that’s not my genius.

[00:25:59] So I have [00:26:00] a really good friend who says, if it’s not your genius, it’s not your job.

[00:26:03] I like it

[00:26:04] I have a wonderful team. Now I have a genius bookkeeper who, and, and a tax planner and somebody that’s helping me with LinkedIn and my social media and, and the artwork. And my son is a content marketer.

[00:26:19] And there you go. And all the things that. Don’t do well. Don’t enjoy, I’m not trained in that. – I have the time to do this. That I absolutely love doing.

Founder vs Solo Entrepreneur

[00:26:31] Another fellow that I did some work with, he said the difference between a founder and a solo entrepreneur is the founder has a team.

[00:26:38] Yeah.

[00:26:39] And I was a, solo entrepreneur for a very long time. Sure. You know, really working to do everything.

[00:26:45] The other thing that I would also offer is “trading” is really good. Mm-hmm, bartering with people who have services of things that you really need, and they need you, and you need them. Some of my [00:27:00] most valuable, valuable, you know, people and, and advice and, and help I’ve gotten through through bartering.

[00:27:06] So if you don’t have the money, it’s, it’s a really good way to, you know, to kind of move through some of those really early stages.

[00:27:12] Miriam: Yeah. It’s good. Because whenever you start anything, there is this space where you’re just trying to figure it all out. You don’t even know what you need. Don’t know.

[00:27:24] You don’t know, you don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:27:25] You don’t know what you don’t know. Yeah. And then you have to launch into this space where no, I could do it, or I should be able to do it, or I don’t know who to hire. And at some point you hire someone and you find out how much better they make your life, and then you’re free to do what you’re the best at

[00:27:44]  I appreciate you using the word, your, your own genius. That is yes. What we each need to do is figure out what our own genius is and then do it and then give other people jobs. So they can do the other stuff. We’re not good at exactly. So exactly.

[00:27:59] Mastery Under Pressure

[00:27:59] Miriam: What do you [00:28:00] think that you are chasing at this stage in your life?

[00:28:03] Tina: I know exactly what I’m chasing and I’ve been chasing it for a long time. I’m getting a lot closer. I really want this business to make a huge impact. All the things that we’re talking about, I believe so strongly. People just don’t know. how To do the work that we’re talking about. I’m really a teacher at heart.

[00:28:21] And so my passion is to spread Mastery Under Pressure, I remember when I moved into New York city and somebody said, How many therapists there are. I said, do you know how many people need help?

[00:28:31] So what I’m chasing is to be able to do this at a really big impact level. Nice. Yeah.

[00:28:39] Miriam: You spoke a little bit about your book Mastery Under Pressure, and I’m gonna ask you in a minute kind of how and where we can find that.

[00:28:46] But what is another book that you would recommend that you felt like was life changing or you give to other people or is a good resource?

[00:28:57] Tina: Jack Canfield. Mm-hmm has the [00:29:00] book called the success principles?

[00:29:02] I’m in a small little mastermind group. We’re all business people and interested in personal and spiritual growth. So that was one of them, Tony Robbins book an old, an old one Awakening the Giant Within. also really, really good book.

[00:29:16] I’m reading this one right now, which I think is really interesting.

[00:29:19] Never split the difference. It’s a negotiating book. And this guy was an FBI negotiator hostage probably still is. But what’s really interesting. Is the things that he talks about in terms of being a good negotiator, is, is that level of empathy and getting somebody, whether you’re negotiating for a job or a salary or with your kids, or it’s I hear you, you know, the most basic thing that people want is to be heard.

[00:29:46] How to Find Tina

[00:29:46] Miriam: I bet you could recommend 10 or 15, but we’re gonna stop at three. that’s very good. Why don’t you share where people can find you?

[00:29:55] Tina: So my book is on Amazon. It’s also on my website, which is mastery under [00:30:00] pressure.com.

[00:30:00] And I also have a quiz it’s called mastery under pressure.net. So you could take a quiz and see where you sit on this focus, relaxation, dealing with negative. Self-talk how to visualize in dealing with fear. So that’s kind of a fun thing to do, and you get a little report back, but just even taking the test kinda, oh, I never thought about that.

[00:30:21] Yeah. And Yeah, just look up my name. I’ve got lots of podcasts, lots of things on YouTube. Just trying to share it, share the message.

[00:30:28] Miriam: I’m very excited. I’ve of course I’m gonna spend some time checking those things out. And Tina, this has been just lovely. I mentioned before we started that we wanted to gift you with a donation in your name from one of four charities and you chose the Shedrick wildlife trust.

[00:30:45] I’m so excited about that. Because we’re gonna sign you up with a little girl elephant. Who’s been orphaned and you’re gonna get monthly updates. And that’s another way that you will be doing good in the world, even across an ocean. So [00:31:00] thank you so much for the gift of your time and your wisdom. What a joy.

[00:31:04] Tina: Thanks, Miriam. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. The same.

 

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Music by Tom Sherlock.

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

 

 

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[00:00:00] Miriam: Welcome Jason. I’m very happy to have you join the leave better podcast. Something I pulled off your website that I found to be just thought provoking: “When you know what your values are and actively and passionately apply them in your life.

[00:00:14] You have found yourself, and that is likely to make a positive impact on the people both near and far. This is a life of value.” Mic drop right there. this conversation is gonna be so great because we are talking about wisdom. You’ve got a book out there called wisdom, a very valuable virtue that cannot be bought, which is a mouthful to say mm-hmm

[00:00:39] I bet it’s incredible to read it’s on my list now. Welcome to the podcast. I can’t wait to see where this conversation goes.

[00:00:46] Jason: Yeah, thanks so much. I love being quoted just right off the bat. I mean, you know, kidding aside, of course. It does signal that that you, you know, care enough about your guests to to look into them, which is you know, one of the marks of a.

[00:00:59] Have a great host. [00:01:00]

[00:01:00] Miriam: Well, thank you.

[00:01:02] So why don’t we start out with, I gave a teeny little introduction, but it doesn’t actually tell who you are and what you do. So why don’t you fill in the gaps? Tell us what I missed and what you wanna highlight.

Introduction Jason

[00:01:14] Jason: Okay. Well, I began to study psychology at the junior college level and found it to be so interesting.

[00:01:23] And then I was thinking that I wanted to be a clinical psychologist.

[00:01:28] I wrote a thesis on social perceptions of suicide. But during that time I decided, you know, maybe I would.

[00:01:34] Do something else. So I twist it and turn toward this thing that I call values of the wise,

[00:01:41] If there is such thing as a wise person, then what, what values are they interested in? And which virtues would they, you know, seek to cultivate within themselves and, and what kind of life would they lead?

[00:01:52] The quotations that they’ve left behind a little bit of biography and just to kind of try to stitch it all together and say, you know, Hey, if, [00:02:00] if Helen Keller and. JFK and Martin Luther king Jr. And Gandhi are all talking about this same value theoretically or arguably well, then it must be a pretty good value because those people and other exemplars lived wonderful lives achieved much.

[00:02:17] And so we should, you know, kind of try to peer in on what they were thinking and how they educated themselves and, and what moved them.

[00:02:25] Miriam: Yeah, that feels pretty profound even in, in and of itself. So I’m gonna ask you kind of a 1-2 sentence question.

[00:02:33] My kids tease me all the time because I’m like in one sentence or less …

Wisdom vs Foolish

[00:02:37] Miriam: When you think about the differentiator between wisdom- wise and not, wise or and foolish, or wise and ordinary, give me a sentence that differentiates those two spaces.

[00:02:51] Jason: Okay. I like that constraint that makes me self- discipline myself.

[00:02:56] . A wise person is [00:03:00] relatively hesitant to foreclose on some idea or ideology.

[00:03:09] And instead kind of holds that tentatively and is always willing to change and doesn’t feel ashamed if they do need to change.

[00:03:17] Miriam: Ah, that feels, that feels like a go on plaque, maybe. Well spoken

[00:03:22] I appreciated on your website, you had that quote from Albert Einstein wisdom is not a product of schooling, but a lifelong attempt to acquire it.

[00:03:32] Right. And I feel like his words probably are dovetailing with your words in your mind, as far as this idea of. We’re not gonna be black and white. It’s not that wise people don’t have positions, but they’re open to entertaining ideas other than their own. And they’re not so quick to just jump down your throat and tell you why you’re wrong.

Lifelong Education

[00:03:57] Jason: I think that that Einstein quote is a [00:04:00] kind of a brilliant example of, we should think that, you know, you don’t just get it at age 18,

[00:04:06] in fact Mortimer J Adler, who is, you know, one of these big names in the world of the Western intellectual tradition and great books and such, he says that he’s read books numerous times throughout his life. And each time they make a bit of, they make a, a difference in a different way. It’s as though he sees things that he didn’t see before and he thinks, well, the book hasn’t changed.

[00:04:27] It must be me. I must have changed.

[00:04:30] And you know, so he believes in lifelong education and he doesn’t even necessarily believe that that. Youths adolescents are, are ready for those big ideas.

[00:04:41] If you ask an 18 year old, what is the purpose of life? The answer you’re gonna get is probably a little shallow, or maybe it, it parrots something that they just saw on YouTube or something. As you get older, you start to realize, well, gosh, maybe my day, my days are numbered.

[00:04:57] I might only have what, 20 years [00:05:00] or 30, if I’m lucky. You don’t even know if you have 20 years. You may have 20 more minutes. So that’s right.

[00:05:06] Miriam: I think that something that’s so fascinating about what we’re talking about.

Current Truth

[00:05:13] I am not a relativist. I do believe that there is actual truth. However, there also is this thing that is your truth at the moment. And some of that has to do with brain development

[00:05:25] 22 year olds brains. Fully done yet. Right?

[00:05:30] Right. And by the time they’re 25 or 30, they’re more mature. And then by the time they’re 60 or 70 certain parts of the brain have died off and new parts have arisen new pathways.

[00:05:43] What, you know, and wisdom is such a fascinating topic because it is hard to pin down.

[00:05:51] As you, asked this question at the very beginning, you said, okay, if you’re looking at Helen Keller and Gandhi and Martin Luther king.

[00:05:59] And if they have some [00:06:00] of the same values, we should pay attention to them.

Values Among Leaders

[00:06:03] Miriam: So I wanted to ask what are some of the common values that you’ve seen as you’ve done your research among these great leaders?

[00:06:12] Jason: I riffed off of Abraham Maslow, who came up with this famous theory about the needs that human beings have with, you know, food, shelter, clothing, sex, et cetera, at the, at the base level, meaning it’s the most, they they’re the most persistent needs, but once satisfied, the human mind always wants to go up the ladder toward greater and greater actualization, like the embodiment of your best self or, or the loftiest. Thing that you can achieve.

[00:06:48] So, you know, self-esteem is on there and belonging and you know, things that you would get from work like fulfillment or meaning, and then, you know, the highest levels it’s, [00:07:00] it’s even more sophisticated.

[00:07:01] And, and so, you know, I think that maybe Einstein called Gandhi a Great Spirit. Because Gandhi tended to dwell at the highest level. I mean, I think when Gandhi died, he had two possessions you know, spectacles and a cane I think maybe were not counting his lo cloth but you know, his spectacles fetched like a, you know, couple hundred thousand dollars in an auction because people were like, that is, those are Gandhi specs.

[00:07:28] He only had one. Maybe he had two pair. That’s what he had. He didn’t have a mansion.

 The Lowest Level

[00:07:32] You think of the opposite of Gandhi as being somebody like Jeffrey Epstein, you know, he’s got everything a person could possibly want. That’s not enough. He also wants the souls of children, you know, to, to put it crudely.

[00:07:45] And you could see how he sort of stuck at that lowest level.

[00:07:48] He probably had great food, great wine sex with the 17 year old. And then, you know, back to food again. Yeah. Maybe a yacht, you know, a twirl around in the yacht or something, but really shallow levels of development.

Societal Values

[00:07:59] [00:08:00] I think that, you know, a case can be made though that certain values tend to crop up when you, you know, read people from Seneca on, through to Toni Morrison or, you know, whomever and people are always popping up like Ms Gorman. , Amanda Gorman, she’s 17. She made a big splash at Biden’s inaugural address because her poetry was, you know, very forceful and her presentation was sort of like otherworldly mm-hmm . And so she’s really young and obviously she’s tapped into some sort of special something wisdom, I guess you might call it because she’s interested in this rather than, you know, TikTok.

[00:08:36] Of course. Society is always kind of claw at those people being like, Hey, you should be interested in TikTok.

[00:08:42] You know, if Britney Spears. Alone on the desert island with a bunch of books, she would never have gone in the direction she did. It’s probably due to the, you know, her parents and people in the music industry who are like, here’s what, here’s what you’re capable of.

[00:08:56] Think about the money it’s gonna get you. And the attention from men, it’s gonna be amazing. Let’s [00:09:00] do this.

[00:09:00] And the parents of course hooked into that. I think in arguably

[00:09:04] anyway, just arriving to, to the main answer to the question is I think that there. You know, less than a hundred, let’s say values and virtues that wise people are attracted to and, and can exemplify.

Values of the Wise

[00:09:17] Jason: I guess if I were to name the 28 that I like the most, I would call them the values of the wise and, you know, they range from creativity to wisdom you know, creativity being first in, in alphabetical order and wisdom being last and, you know, included the lists are unusual choices such as humor. Or honor things like this.

[00:09:41] But essentially if you find a quote that you love, you know, one that was attributed to Gandhi incorrectly, I think I read be the change you wish to see in the world. You know, that fits into some sort of category of value, right?

[00:09:52] He was talking about human values, the things that. At the highest level drive human beings. And so you can, you know, choose [00:10:00] whichever value you think it’s about, but by all means, please read what he wrote and be interested in it and, and categorize it in your mind.

[00:10:07] According to some value, maybe do what some people do. They take a marker and they write on their mirror, be the change way to see in the world. They remember it, right, right. When they’re, you know, doing their hair

Reflecting on Our Values and Actions

[00:10:17] Miriam: I think that you’re, you’re not incorrect. There are hundreds of values and it sounds like possibly your book categorized 28. It seems like most people have the ability to hold five, maybe six. I had an interesting conversation with my son the other day, and I was talking about an influencer who was talking about the death of his dad

[00:10:39] on his deathbed. He asked his dad. What do you wanna say to us, or mm-hmm, , you know, kind of, what are your final words? And, and his dad had a series of short sentences be kind, take care of your mother do the work, you know, things like that.

[00:10:55] So I was talking with my son about what would that set of values be?

[00:10:59] If you know, [00:11:00] if that was me,

[00:11:00] what have you heard me talk about?

[00:11:02] And it was a very interesting conversation because everything he said. I had said many times, but things that I thought were values that I was speaking out loud, they are values. I do take action on them, but clearly I don’t make them as verbal as the others because he didn’t pick up on them.

[00:11:20] And I said, man, I gotta ramp up my game a little bit about what it is I talk about because these other things are as important.

Nuggets of Wisdom

[00:11:28] You know, I was saying things like Well, he was saying, I was saying things like:

[00:11:35] Take action.

[00:11:36] Be respectful.

[00:11:38] I was good with that. Those two were good.

[00:11:40] Don’t spend more than you earn.

[00:11:42] I was onboard with that, but I wished he had said

[00:11:46] Always be grateful.

[00:11:47] That is a value I hold and I speak in my journal, but apparently I don’t speak it out loud, quite as much as I need to, you know,

[00:11:56] Own your own life.

[00:11:58] Those are some of the things,

Deathbed Values

[00:11:59] Miriam: What are some of [00:12:00] the small sentences you would be saying on your deathbed of your values?

[00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, that’s a good question. And just as a little feedback, I think you know, a parent who speaks with their. Child about those kinds of things is obviously trying to transmit wisdom. And that is, that is laudable also to connect it, connect some. You know, content to some sort of process or value is also useful.

[00:12:28] So if they come home on time, you know, I appreciate your punctuality or I like the way you treated that person that was very respectful or the way you accepted losing that contest. That’s magnanimous. You know what I mean?

[00:12:43] So it associates actions that could be wisdom with the value of the virtue that was in your opinion involved.

[00:12:52] So I would say,

[00:12:53] Remember that there is this thing called honor or

[00:12:56] Wisdom is much deeper than [00:13:00] mere knowledge or

[00:13:02] Always try to keep your sense of humor, even if life is getting you down or

[00:13:07] Development is when you try to make progress in your life, be it intellectual, emotional, spiritual, physical, whatever, keep going for development.

Values in a Sentence

[00:13:18] Miriam: Those would probably be some examples. Yeah. And are those things that you see yourself saying, or are you saying that’s how you would give the sentence to the values?

[00:13:28] I mean, like what, I guess my question is, what are your sentences?

[00:13:33] Jason: I, I probably would be you know, I probably would exhaust myself to death sharing, you know, all the things I wanted to share on my deathbed. I was, I’m sort of a perfectionist, so I would be the kind of person who would. You know, get, get my scribe, you know, I’m gonna start, I’m gonna start speaking now and just on, on and on and on.

[00:13:54] But I think that’s one of the reasons why I, I find that books are worth the [00:14:00] trouble. And I mean the writing of them, because that is a way to put down writing now while you’re still alive.

[00:14:07] For the most part, you know, if you say it in writing and you publish it, it’s kind of you saying

[00:14:12] “here I stand. I can, I can do no other “as Martin Luther, Martin Luther said.

Complexity of Wisdom

[00:14:18] Miriam: What did you learn about yourself as you wrote that book?

[00:14:20] Jason: This latest one, I would say, you know, wisdom is very nuanced and it is composed of different parts and it’s contextual in nature.

[00:14:31] So you can make a statement that you think you believe, but if you go on. If you go

[00:14:40] around to the other side of the mountain and look up, you’re gonna see something different and you’re gonna say, okay, well, I know I said such and such and I, I don’t think that’s wrong.

[00:14:49] It’s just that I think it’s a little more complex now.

[00:14:51] Or, or maybe you’ll, maybe you’ll say it’s actually simpler than I thought,

[00:14:55] so you don’t really wanna you know, Chronicle your wisdom with [00:15:00] a a hammer and a chisel in a, in. Piece of stone because you won’t be able to erase. You should probably do it in a word processor.

[00:15:08] I forgot your question.

Make a Decision

[00:15:10] Miriam: What did you learn about yourself as you wrote the book? Right, right. That was at a high level. How about at a, at a more basic level?

[00:15:18] Jason: I, I realized that a, I had to make a decision along the way. I decided up front, I would share opinions, stories about things that I’ve done in the past that I thought reflected wisdom, or that did not reflect wisdom foolishness, maybe about myself.

[00:15:32] Mm-hmm and those provided little footholds, I think for folks who were a little less abstract.

[00:15:38] And, but I also had to ask. Am I going to speak about the social, cultural, political, religious values issues going on around me? Because you know, the book kind of gets frozen in time it kind of captures.

[00:15:54] The zeitgeist of the time and place in which the author finds himself.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] I had to ask myself, what’s more important to say what you think with little reservation and run the risk of having somebody be able to slam you in some sort of a review or whatever, or are you gonna try to go, you know, right to the middle and try to avoid stepping in pitfalls.

[00:16:20] And I chose the former.

[00:16:23] Miriam: I wanna jump back to your the statement you made just shortly before this the context of these values.

[00:16:31] I took a test. I’m gonna go with five or six years ago and I don’t remember the name of it, but it basically categorized these 20 values that pretty much every normal human being has and holds, but it put them in the order of your own personal importance.

Value Test

[00:16:49] And what it meant is that you believe both these things are true and valuable, but when push comes to shove, you’re gonna choose this value over that value.

[00:16:57] And. [00:17:00] Like a simple example, I would say, would be relationship and truth. There are certain types of people who will basically allow the relationship to go away to camp on what is right. There are other types of people who also believe in truth, but who will elevate the value of relationship over what they think to be true.

[00:17:24] And society actually needs both kinds of people because the one kind of person keeps society together. And the other kind of person keeps society ordered.

[00:17:34] And so you have, you know, the policeman who has to say you broke the law and the judge who has to say you broke the law. And the priest who gets to come in and offer you, solace while you’re in jail and bringing comfort in this way or the other, like the one person can understand that, yes, this fundamental truth was broken, disturbed, et cetera.

[00:17:59] But I [00:18:00] choose to remain connected to you as a human being because of your humanity.

[00:18:04] And the other says, I get that you’re a human and you don’t deserve to be, you know, strung up, but I’m not gonna let this pass.

[00:18:14] Right. And the type of person might be the nun who was featured in the, the movie dead man walking.

Right Thing to Do

[00:18:23] She, it was, she was played by Susan. And I dunno if you remember the movie, but Sean pin I believe was, was sentenced to die. And, you know, Sean pin was kind of a hardcore guy, but because she, or because her role was to provide comfort to death row inmates, she made a huge impact on him. And, and, but, you know, spoiler alert by the end he was crying.

[00:18:46] . The nun is like, I’m gonna, not only am I gonna give of my time to you, but I’m going to love you. It is gonna be based on you as a human being who deserves respect and should be treated like a Thou, a T H O U.[00:19:00]

[00:19:01] We’ll relate to like that. And we’ll see if we can’t even preserve your life because, you know, she was in, in one sense, she was trying to you know, get him to. Admit that he was wrong, which is something that you virtually never get the typical death or inmate to do. But she was trying to get Sean Penn’s character to accept that what he did was wrong.

Complex Perspective

[00:19:24] Not because it, it entails some sort of salvation in an afterlife, but because it’s the right thing to do and it kind of draws his life to a completion in, in a way that wouldn’t be done. If he was going to the elector chair saying, I didn’t do this. And the system’s corrupt and you know, the prosecutor, you know, and the family, the family doesn’t know anything.

[00:19:48] And I didn’t do that to that person. It’s like, when you could really accept what you did was wrong. and think of it in a, in, from that complex perspective, like why did you do that? What was going on in your world that you would [00:20:00] do that to another person that’s really rich stuff. And it reminds me of the idea of restorative justice, which as you probably know, is a thing and, and as far superior to incarceration.

[00:20:12] So yeah, go ahead and talk about it a little bit. I am aware of it, but I don’t believe I could speak to it. Very eloquently. So speak a little bit about restorative justice.

Restorative Justice

[00:20:24] Jason: I’m not sure if I can speak to it terribly eloquently, but you know, criminal justice is based on, on a theory. And the theory is kind of muddled in this criminal justice system in America, but it has a lot to do with separating the dangerous person, the rest of society.

[00:20:43] And that’s a good thing. However, it also has to do with a kind of a pernicious type of social control.

[00:20:50] And it serves a way of, of punishing the offender by subjecting them.

[00:20:56] What I think could note, could be described as nothing less than, you [00:21:00] know, inhumane treatment, be it, the cell, the size of the cell, the fact that, you know, they don’t really do a very good job with education or any type of real. You know, self growth, but rather it’s kind of just like biding your time.

[00:21:16] It’s pretty well known that folks, you know, fleece each other and engage in various kinds of crimes in jail, up to, and including sexual assault as a punishment for not participating, et cetera, cetera, etc. So, If that’s what the criminal justice system is based on to say to somebody, I sentence you to, to live in this for the rest of your natural life, which might in some cases be 70 years.

[00:21:42] And there’s a, you know, asterisks here and that is that you may not have done the crime because as you know, from the innocence project, a lot of people didn’t even commit the crime. Yeah.

Example of Restorative Justice

[00:21:52] Anyway, so restorative justice, as a way of saying, instead of doing what’s called the, what I’ve been describing is retributive justice. [00:22:00] As in retribution for a crime, we’re going to re request and require that you try to restore what you have done by committing the crime. So for example, they might.

[00:22:11] The victim and the perpetrator in the same room at the same time with some sort of qualified mediator, counselor type of person, to be able to protect the, the victim. And once that, that inmate has has reached a level of development in the recognition of their crime that they’re able. To talk to the victim and accept responsibility for it. And to some degree, apologize for it.

[00:22:42] I mean, I’ve seen examples. I forget if it was a movie or movies or Netflix or whatever, but I mean, the inmate is crying. The victim’s crying, my wife’s crying, I’m crying, you know, and it just leaves you with the completely different sense than if you were to just imagine somebody sitting in a [00:23:00] six foot by 10 foot cell, smoking cigarettes and doing pushups for the rest of their life.

[00:23:05] There’s two very different paths to where trying to make something positive come of, of the situation.

End Goals

[00:23:13] Miriam: Yeah. Well, the one you’re describing is “preventing more harm” to society, obviously not to the individual. The other is bringing something positive out of the harm that was done. And those are very different end goals.

[00:23:30] I was thinking when you were talking about the nun, that the reason that, that conversation, and if that person was guilty for them to express that they were guilty or confess that they were guilty is that it brings congruence- inner and outer congruence, which I, I believe is a value

[00:23:47] when people don’t feel like their insides match their outsides, there’s all sorts of stress and anxiety and depression. All sorts of mental health issues come from when you’re [00:24:00] living one thing on the inside, and you’re saying something else or living something else on the outside.

[00:24:06] Jason: right. And self sabotage mm-hmm yep.

[00:24:11] Miriam: That’s something my talk about all the time.

A Message From LeaveBetter

 

Self-Sabotage and Value Systems

[00:24:51] Miriam: Mm-hmm how how would you see or say people self sabotage themselves with their value systems?[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Jason: Well, you know, I think they’re probably levels and of course you would be the better person to speak to this, but because of your expertise, that is You know, there’s the sort of clinical counseling level where you would investigate and explore in concert with the client. You know, why did you do what you did?

[00:25:23] Let’s think about the deepest levels of that. It was obviously kind of a negative outcome. It’s not what you say you want for yourself. Didn’t provide good results. So why did you do that? That’s one level of examination of self sabotage.

[00:25:38] But there’s a kind of a lighter and, and more arguable sense. I think that I can speak to as well. And that is, you know, if all you do is absorb the culture’s mores and, and values. You may only achieve, you know, kind of a minimal level of, of moral [00:26:00] development.

[00:26:01] And along with that, you know, psychological, spiritual, emotional development. And that would be sad because that’s not achieving a person’s high as potential.

Think For Yourself

[00:26:11] So it’s not. Self sabotage in the sense that you drank again, which is obviously, you know, suitable for that clinical space to, to examine.

[00:26:21] But if all you do is say, I go to church on Sundays, I try to listen to the homily. It really is boring, but I do it anyway. And maybe, maybe later that week, I might think about it.

[00:26:33] I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think about when I’m gambling, cuz it’s kind of boring when you’re at the gambling table and you have extra time on your hands. Or maybe if my wife and I are fighting, I’ll throw the homily at her as a way to try to score a point. That person is just basically picking up on. What they heard and, and that’s only like one level above a parrot, which can also repeat things that have been said to it repeatedly.

[00:26:57] Yeah. So I think to be able to think for yourself [00:27:00] would be the, the virtue that would overcome that type of self sabotage.

Match Your Heart with Your Actions

[00:27:04] Miriam: Yeah. There’s no integration of the information. It’s, it’s a different form. Of non- congruence it is still the inside not matching the outside, but the issue is that this virtuous thing, whatever it is is on the outside of you.

[00:27:20] And it’s only penetrated, you know, sunscreen deep and it’s not actually getting through to your core.

[00:27:27] I was talking to a friend today about a situation I had seen with a people- pleasing person who looked like they had empathy because they did whatever the other person asked them to do. But I knew them well.

[00:27:42] And actually empathy is something they struggle with. And It was sunscreen, deep empathy. Right. You know, it wasn’t to the core, to the heart, to the marrow.

[00:27:53] So if someone would like to grow in their assimilation of values [00:28:00] what is your opinion is a way to up your values game .

[00:28:04] Beyond reading, because unfortunately I have found so many people today do not read

Values Inventory

[00:28:12] Jason: I have a little inventory that a person can take for free and with no advertisements where it, it helps them to understand their values better.

[00:28:22] Mm-hmm and the way that I do that is by throwing. 175 or whatever quotations at them. And I say, rate this quote on a scale of one to 10. Yeah. And, and the computer is able to assess, you know, do they tend to like a certain value more than. So the computer can tell you, you really seem to like the creativity, ingenuity and vision. Quotations and what you, you know, the one you like the least is truth and justice, and here’s how the other ones rank as well.

[00:28:56] And so that’s a, a way to, you know, kind of characterize, [00:29:00] if you just have more consciousness about what your values are, then that can go a long way to Helping your values game.

[00:29:09] Because some people, you really confuse them. You know, if you, sit down and say, excuse me, can I ask you, what are your values?

[00:29:16] It’s just the, conversation’s probably not gonna work out right. For one reason or another. Agreed. That is to say that maybe the, the person who lives in that town, they just don’t really think about it. They think about other things.

Freedom

[00:29:28] Yeah, sometimes they do because they sometimes say “I stand for freedom.”

[00:29:34] And so then obviously you’d wanna know what exactly do you mean by that?

[00:29:39] Yeah. And of course, if they say, well, I mean, I mean I support the freedom to say whatever you want and not be censored.

[00:29:46] Okay. That’s good.

[00:29:47] How about the freedom to choose whether or not you’re going to raise, you know, a fetus into a child and care for them until they’re 25 years old.

[00:29:56] Is that, is that freedom to you or is that somehow different than freedom?

[00:29:59] And [00:30:00] so it can lead to like a very three dimensional, very in depth, look at you know, what your values are.

[00:30:06] If you just kind of think about, ’em talk about, ’em read about, ’em think about ’em while you’re walking in a forest. You know, do things that are values oriented and it’s different than what you’re gonna get.

[00:30:19] If you just adopt this standard you know, values of society, which tend to be what, like the pursuit of money is extremely important.

[00:30:28] People need to like you,

[00:30:30] they need to like, whatever you say on social media you know

[00:30:33] You’re sort of a a consumer first and foremost.

[00:30:38] There’s another tribe out there whom you’re supposed to hate.

[00:30:40] You know what I mean? Things like this.

Values of Others

[00:30:42] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that last few minutes took my brain so many different places.

[00:30:48] I was thinking at a smaller level, an easy way to find out what people value – you know, what is important to you?

[00:30:56] And I loved your question about, well, what does that [00:31:00] mean?

[00:31:00] And then, but then you took it, you know, does it mean this? Does it mean this does mean this?

[00:31:04] And they were all maybe politically opposite or religiously opposite.

[00:31:08] And what I have found in today’s day and age, Is that people are not good at holding other people’s values that are diametrically opposite of theirs without getting hot under the collar.

[00:31:22] And one of the spaces that I’m trying to encourage is civil dialogue about things that maybe you don’t believe. And can you see this person and have a respectful conversation and allow them to stretch your thinking if they’re a different political party or if they’re a different religious entity or if they’re a different gender or, you know, whate whatever, can you take the other person’s perspective long enough to understand why that particular thing is important to them?

[00:31:53] Or do you X them immediately?

Books

[00:31:56] Miriam: I wanna jump back to the book space and I [00:32:00] want to ask you’ve written at least three or four. I understand it to be difficult to write a book. I have not written a book. I have started several books, but I have not finished several books.

[00:32:13] Talk to me about the process of beginning, middle and. Of that rolled in along with your value systems, because I’m pretty sure your values drive your actions or behaviors. And those are the things that get the books done. And I, I just want to understand, I wanna pull this conversation out of the abstract and into the concrete, because out of any.

[00:32:41] There’s any number of people who are abstract and are like just traveling along the rails with us. And then there’s another subset of people that are like, what are they talking about? I want, I would really like it to be practical as well.

Autobiographies

[00:32:55] Jason: You know, I’ve taken many, many classes and it can be difficult to [00:33:00] read memorize, write et cetera, in a subject that doesn’t really move you.

[00:33:07] So that’s why autobiographies are somewhat of the easiest stuff to write, because it’s you telling your story about yourself, right. And your move to do that because you have you find meaning in that in one way or another.

[00:33:22] There’s a kind of movement now to do stuff at the end of your life, where you pass on your story and your values, whatever to, to your children and grandchildren, you know, in the form of a book.

[00:33:34] Maybe in a form of various audio recordings or whatever, but that can, you you’d be motivated to do that because you want them to know these things and you want them to know you and maybe think highly of you. So obviously you gotta know, you have to know something about something because you can’t write a book.

[00:33:52] I could not write a book about mountaineering or Splunking. Because I don’t know anything about those two things. It would be [00:34:00] impossible,

[00:34:00] but if you’re, mark Twain, you’re interested in stuff, you could write a stack of books, and do numerous speaking tours, and his way of thinking about things was unique enough that. If he put it in writing,

[00:34:13] it could be very useful to other people because he had an inimitable style.

Write To Your Interests

[00:34:17] . So anyway you know, why would I write a book about wisdom is because I’m that interested in, in the subject and because I think I have something to share and because. For me, authorship represented values, like education, communication mastery of a subject. There’s probably some self concern in there, you know, I dunno if I’d say self aggrandizement, but. You know, if you knew that you’d have to put your book through a shredder, as soon as you wrote it, it wouldn’t be quite as exciting as if you know, people are gonna read it.

[00:34:51] The good news for aspiring authors is that now is a pretty easy time to get your book published because you, you know, we live in a, in an era where [00:35:00] you don’t have to ask anybody if, if they will accept your book, you put it up on Amazon or do you know something similar with it and the answer’s.

[00:35:07] Yes.

[00:35:07] Miriam: How about getting you through the process?

[00:35:11] You have to have sticktuitiveness because you feel like doing something in hour, one doesn’t mean that you’re gonna. Motivated enough to continue, but that’s, that’s what your art requires.

[00:35:23] If you know, Michael Angelo started to chip away at that piece of marble that became David. Which it took him months to find, by the way looking for the right piece.

David Statue

[00:35:35] He finally found it. And you know, if he would have chiseled for five days and been like, this is kind of hard on the wrist. Geez. I think maybe I should go back to painting, you know, we would never have, we would not have David. Yeah. But it’s because he was relentless with it and perfectionistic and truly cared about the art and what he was trying to demonstrate that it just kept him.

[00:35:57] Kept him going.

[00:35:58] You kinda have to have that [00:36:00] fire within to deal with the challenges that writing a book and perfecting a book and proofreading a book and publishing a book and promoting a book are gonna cost you. So if you don’t love it, Don’t do it because you’ll certainly face the costs. The question is, are the benefits gonna outweigh those costs?

[00:36:19] Yeah, well spoken.

[00:36:21] I love that word. Relentless. It’s one of my favorite words. It just speaks to grit and stick- to- it-ive-ness.

[00:36:29] Well, we’re coming up to kind of about the end. I wanna ask two other quick questions besides your own, what book would you recommend to someone if they wanted to grow in terms of wisdom?

Books on Wisdom

[00:36:43] Jason: Hmm, well, I think it probably would be Steven S Hall’s 2010 book called wisdom from. Philosophy to neuroscience. I was influenced greatly by Steven Hall’s book. He certainly interviewed dozens and dozens of big names [00:37:00] in philosophy, psychology you know, neuropsychiatry, all kinds of stuff.

[00:37:04] He starts out with Confucius and Socrates and goes right up to, you know, what is an F MRI scan and what does it reveal about the brain?

[00:37:11] What is the brain doing when you’re meditating? What is the brain doing when you’re competing with somebody? Psychological game, et cetera, etcetera.

[00:37:19] Miriam: Well, we’ll put that in the show notes for sure. How can people find you and reach you,

[00:37:25] Jason: well, the book can be found@amazon.com

[00:37:27] I’d say, instead of searching for the word wisdom, they should maybe search for my, my name. And then I have the, the website that, that we’ve been discussing a bit called valuesofthewise.com and you know, there’s a lot of things you can do on the website that don’t cost money and don’t require a subscription or anything. I, I just put it out there because I want people to be interested in these types of things.

Charities

[00:37:50] I think if somebody were to, if actually, if somebody were to, to have, a hours to. To kill, they could do worse than you know, hanging around the website because there’s a lot [00:38:00] that you can explore.

[00:38:01] Miriam: Yeah. I only had a little bit of time to look at it, but my first thought was I’m coming back. There were some great things to check out and I definitely am going to do it.

[00:38:12] Before we started recording. I had mentioned charities that I regularly gift. And you had chosen the Sheldrick wild animal trust, you’ll be receiving an adoption of a tiny orphan elephant. You’ll get once a month for a year, an update on that orphan.

[00:38:29] I know of the charity. I also search on charity navigator.com and try to go for those four star charities.

[00:38:36] If you ever spend a little time looking at their website, you know, the way that those little elephants you know, they deserve good things in life rather than to be abandoned due to this strange human desire for Ivory.

[00:38:48] Jason: Yeah. The height of non- wisdom, the height foolishness, we’re destroying our global treasures for something that’s just folly.

[00:38:58] Exactly.

[00:38:58] So, oh my [00:39:00] goodness, Jason, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. And let’s do this again sometime.

[00:39:06] Yeah, it’s been a pleasure.

 

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