Risk and Rewards – Ernest Prabhakar

Ernest Prabhakar

[00:00:00] Hey guys, today I had a little bit of an issue when we first started recording, and so we’re gonna bounce right in here with dr. Ernie Prar. He will introduce himself and I hope you enjoyed the interview,

[00:00:16] Intro to Ernest

Ernie: I’m Dr. Ernie Probhakar. I have a PhD in physics and like many physicists, my generation, I went into management consulting to study the business world, and I went to it with the eyes of a physicist to try to understand how business works. And it was really fun at 40 hours a week and a waste of my life at 80 hours week..

And so looking for something more meaningful. I actually ended up joining Apple in 1997 during the second coming of Steve Jobs, and I thought it’d be fun to kind of just hang out and watch what happened for a few years. I didn’t really think that I would stay, I didn’t think the company would survive.

It did as you may have heard. And so I got to be there during the entire Steve Jobs second era from 97 through 2014.

And I still looked at [00:01:00] it with the eyes of a physicist. How does this place work? Why does this place work? And I was really struck by the extraordinary personal growth and productivity that was generated.

But also saddened by the deep emotional toll it took on a lot of people.

So I left with my, and to do a startup in 2014 trying to really answer a question like, is it possible to get those levels of performance in a more humane way?

And this has led to an extraordinary series of misadventures.

Misadventures

My first, my first startup was a, a glorious learning experience. I don’t like to use the word failure, but that’s certainly an the way it felt at the time. And since then I’ve been working at various startups and working with various startups and nonprofits and actually got a certificate into this discipline called spiritual entrepreneurship, which is one of the things I think that got us connected is that.

I’m passionate about this idea of entrepreneurship, of helping people bring new things into the world to serve their community, whether that’s the [00:02:00] corner store or a multinational startup.

But I’m also equally intrigued by this question of what kind of human beings do we become and do we need to become in order to deliver that value to the world.

And this is, you know, a raw tension for me, you know, almost every day of how do I balance being the person that I want to be with, making the impact I want to make in the world.

Working for Apple

Miriam: Yeah. Wow. Ernie, this is so timely because I have been asking some of those same questions more or less my whole life, but. Like more intensely the last month and, you know, six weeks or whatever. This is gonna be a very thought-provoking conversation.

So before we jump into that latter half, you’re the first person I’ve talked to who has actually worked for Apple, and I’m like, I, love all things Apple.

I took a class earlier in the fall that required me to buy a pc and it’s my first pc ever, [00:03:00] and I hate it so much.

I hate it so much. So I’m constantly Googling on my Mac. How do you do X on a pc? Because I just don’t know.

So anyway what did you observe in this nexus between whatever made Apple successful and also being a physicist?

I’m, I’m not well versed in physics, but I’m fascinated by physics.

[00:03:28] Asking Why

Ernie: So the way I describe a physicist, it’s the two year old who never grew up, and you just keep asking why, why ? Yeah. And so the best framing I have for what I learned at Apple,

the thing that struck me that was underappreciated, that Steve Jobs, you know, had an amazing taste, an amazing drive, an amazing passion, but he had this unusual gift for what I like to call human system design.

And he said, how do I make something that is obsessed over [00:04:00] quality and greatness, but also scales to a massive corporation.

So I think people have talked about this idea of the top 100, where you get the top a hundred people in the company, which is not just the top senior people. It could, it’s like half really senior people, but half people who are just subject matter experts on what the company needs to obsess over for the next year.

And it gets them in a room for a week. And they all get on the same page about what’s real, what’s important and what’s necessary.

And then they have those relationships and that shared grounding in reality that they use to drive all the microscopic decisions and decentralized activity that takes place throughout a massive multinational corporation.

And. Since leaving Apple I’ve discovered what many people do when they leave Apple is that the rest of the world is not intentionally designed and people don’t obsess over, like at Apple, it’s just [00:05:00] sort of a given. We worship at the altar of design, as I like to say.

There’s a wonderful quote I heard, which is that there is no user error, there is just bad design.

Will and Desire

Hmm. If you take that seriously, it profoundly changes the way you look at the world when you realize like, okay, the world is this way, but as Steve jobs like to say, it was designed by somebody no smarter than you, and you can change it if you have the will and the desire.

But the second thing is you realize that and this is perhaps the hardest lesson, is that if people aren’t behaving the way I want, then it’s my responsibility to design a better environment, a better context for them to make decisions.

Cause if they don’t see what I see, then I’m not embedding those values and that vision in my storefront, in my marketing material, in my onboarding process.

That’s a heavy lift. [00:06:00] It is much easier to whine and complain about why people don’t buy my product about why, you know, this politician doesn’t solve this problem.

But to say no, it is my responsibility as a designer to deeply understand the world I am living in, and find the path of leverage where I can make the difference I seek to make. And that is probably the biggest thing I got from my time at Apple was A, this is possible. B, this is insanely difficult cuz you have to unlearn so many things.

You have to bear so much emotional weight. You have to confront so much institutional shame. But then the third point is that this is totally worth. This is the most human thing that you can do is to look at the world with fresh eyes and [00:07:00] not harden your heart, but engage with it in a deeply personal, vulnerable way that will make the world better than it was when you found it.

Spiritual Journey

And that to me was sort of the spiritual journey that I experienced at Apple that I’m still sort of trying to unfold and unpack in my various endeavors since then. Yeah. Wow. I feel like my brain is exploding because there’s so many places, , you could go with that. There’s just so many questions I have about this whole notion.

very counterintuitive to like business at large and everybody talks about corporate culture, but you’re talking about a ton of unlearning and I think I want to ask you know, in, in terms of a bottom line and efficiency and all this other stuff, There is this notion that you go slow to go fast and that at at a a more superior level, go slow to go fast.

Because if you’re trying to go [00:08:00] fast, you’re gonna just bundle it up. And yeah, you’ll initially get there, but you won’t have the infrastructure and the ideas that allow you to go really further. And so I guess my question would be, What did this look like? How were they teaching you to unlearn some of this stuff?

[00:08:20] Journey in Innovation

Ernie: I mean, Apple, far and away has been incredible with their design. And not to just harp on that company, but they really changed the standard of doing business, of making products. And I remember at some point someone saying, you know, that Steve Jobs said something about the interior of the computer that nobody was gonna see.

Had to look elegant and had to look a certain way. You know, so, Let me see if I can parse out a question there. . That was a lot of words. Yeah. Let me, let me say one I think useful context so people understand what I’m talking about, because [00:09:00] there is a world where it’s bad to care about your customers, and that is when you are doing invention, trying to create new things that haven’t existed, like the Wright brothers trying to build an.

They weren’t worried about sales and marketing, they were just trying to get the stupid thing off the ground to fly. Sure. Right. And there’s this journey in innovation, which used to be something that happened in generations and now it happens in months. Mm-hmm. , which is that you have to sort of cut off the world and sink yourself into invention and produce something, and you have to be very sort of producer centric and you just need to do whatever you can just to get the airplane off the.

Shifting Mindsets

But what happened was is that, you know, like a decade later, you know, Curtis Wright and the airlines and everything all happened, but now it’s like you’ve got maybe a, a couple of months, you know, maybe a year or two if you’re working on something really hard to figure that out. But soon afterwards, you have to start shifting from this [00:10:00] producer centric mindset to a consumer-centric mindset.

And that’s the hard transition. It’s like if you’re just trying to get the factories running and stuff out the door, you know, you can’t afford to think about things. You have to focus. And it’s important to have that focus time and just follow the routine and work the process and grind through. But as soon as your, your idea, your product hits the customer, the world changes.

And then you have to untrain yourself from all those habits of mind and say, I had to have an irrational belief in myself and in my product. To get this far, I have to surrender that irrational belief that carefully constructed box I was living in and start unfolding myself and saying, okay, what if I’m wrong?

What if You’re Wrong?

What or what if part of my vision is wrong? What are my atomic assumptions? I have to break apart into subatomic particles to realize that they were half [00:11:00] right and half wrong, which are the parts of my identity that third me so well to just brute force my way to this point that are now destroying not just the people around me, but the impact I want to create.

And so it’s that cyclical process. Like, yes, there is a place for focusing on the bottle line and efficiency and tuning, but those places are becoming rarer and shorter lived. And so the, the meta skill is precisely learning how to recognize the context you are now in and let go of the things that made sense in other contexts that are my favorite word is mal.

They don’t adapt well to your current situation, even if they were incredibly valuable and precious and just grieving that loss of identity. Is I consider the master skill of the 21st century. Wow. That is impressive to string these thoughts together. I also [00:12:00] love that word maladaptive, and I use it all the time.

[00:12:03] Executing Visions

Ernie: I was thinking as you were speaking, you’re talking about two totally different personalities, and usually one person has one or the other, but it is extremely rare for someone to have. Or to be able to like navigate through those different spaces. I was talking about this with someone earlier today, talking about vision and the kind of person who has vision versus the kind of person who executes and who is strategic in their you know, just putting things together.

There’s the one guy who designs the Lego thing and there’s the other guy who builds it often. They aren’t the same person. Well, what’s funny, Is that that was the way the world used to be. Mm-hmm. , right? You had a job for generations. Yeah. Like there are communities in India where like they have a city which is just does washing

Like that’s all those people do. Their ancestors like, and the thing that’s, that’s fascinating about that. [00:13:00] In many ways, those people are happi. Because their future is predetermined and they just find joy in their relationships and doing the same thing over and over again. Yeah. The problem with those worlds is that they are not adaptive.

Right. And the danger, and there’s this, there’s this tension between sort of a low energy state of contentment and a high energy state of responsiveness and the world we are entering in. Those islands of consistency are, are disappearing for sure. Right. And we should treasure them where we find them and honor them.

Modernity

But we shouldn’t be nostalgic or diluted. I mean the arc of human history. You know the arc of modernity, you know, and I as an Asian American, Indian American, I live in this borderline between the traditional culture my parents grew up in and the modern culture that, you know, the [00:14:00] hyper modern culture of Silicon Valley that I live in now.

And I realize that the price of modernity is to become less happy and more neurotic because there are more things you can. Yeah, right. If you have, if everything’s up to the gods, if there is no technology, if there is no way to make things better, you just follow the rituals and either you live or you die and you’re just, you’re happy when things are going well.

You grieve when things are going bad, and then you move on when you live or you die. It’s just what it is, but it’s like, Hey, why did that person die? That we have changed? Could I be, you know, planting crops and improving my yield so we don’t starve? And there’s all these things to worry about in the modern world because we have all these options and we celebrate the options.

Even as, you know, we make a lot of work for people like you to therapy because we’re so stressed by it. I actually have a framework that I’ve been using to help think about [00:15:00] this, which I think kind of ties into this, thinking about it as a. There’s places for different things. So the joke is everyone tells you to follow your heart.

Following Your Aorta

I think you’re off by a an inch. You should follow your aorta instead. Which is another, the big blood vessel that comes out of the heart. And aorta is an acronym that stands for ambition, openness, risk, thankfulness awareness. So you start with the ambition, the desire of the thing you wanna bring in the world.

And I, I think people who, in your audience here, some of them are entrepreneurs who have an outward focus on, I wanna build this business, I wanna hit these revenue goals, I wanna impact this market. I wanna prove that I can build this thing right? And then there’s people who have internal ambitions. I want be happy, I want to have a healthy family life.

I want to be able to improve my relationships or connect more deeply with certain significant people. and all ambitions are useful because they su, they’re a signal that you are not just a lump of [00:16:00] rock existing in peace with eternity. You have something within you that is different than what is out in the world, and that is what it means to exist, to have this tension between being and becoming.

Be Open

And so you start with that ambition and, but the next point I think is so critical is open. Is that you don’t wanna just act on your ambition. You want to be open to what has been done before, what are the best practices, what are the realities of the market? And so that you take the time to pull in all these different things, both understanding internally what’s driving you, and then externally what is out there in the world.

And then the third level, the R A O R is. The, the second danger, the first danger is going off, you know, half cocked without thinking things through. The second danger is getting stuck in analysis paralysis. And this is something that we don’t teach well. One of my, my heroes, Seth Godin, talks about we shouldn’t teach math.

We should teach poker. Yeah. [00:17:00] Because if you teach poker, you, you, you’ll learn, learn math. They’ll learn risk. They’ll learn finances. They’ll learn empathy. Yeah. They’ll learn all these things because learning like the old, the old world in like the 20th century, it was bridged. Everything was on the table.

[00:17:14] Learning Risk

Ernie: You could count the cards and make a calculated risk based on the probabilities, which were easy to define. Right. We live in what’s called a VUCA world volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Yeah. And in that world, The skill of learning how to estimate, manage, and take risks in particular, like this is the big one for entrepreneurs and even in relationships.

What is the smallest risk you can take that will increase your understanding of reality? And this is the thing that, you know, destroys so many entrepreneurs. They like mortgaged their house. They bet everything and they kill themselves when their thing dies. Where it’s like, you know, Hey, could you do a market survey?

Could you get a job at your nearest competitor? , [00:18:00] could you do small things that would dramatically increase your understanding and reduce your uncertainty? But it has to be real, right? You have to be actually risking something, spending ego points as like to say burning ego to buy learning. Mm-hmm.

is the risk. So ambition, openness, risk, and then this is the thing, which is where you have to stop and sort of retreat to your ancestors, which is to be. After exercising your ego and your will to try and make a change, to take a risk to bet something,

stop, breathe. It’s like, okay, that was awesome. That was awful. I learned some things. I unlearned some things. I gained some things. I lost some things, but I choose to just. And be thankful. A friend of mine said something profound. He says, you know, the [00:19:00] reason the truth doesn’t set me free is I don’t let myself dwell with it long enough to get uncomfortable.

Dealing with Discomfort

Mm. Once I start getting uncomfortable, I reject the truth and move on. Either I try to fix it or I try to forget it. Yeah. And to have the spiritual capacity to dwell with the discomfort. To face the uncomfortable truths and be thankful for the opportunity to learn them is the place where learning happens.

That’s how you break these cycles, and I, I’ve come to realize that like the, the, the depth of the problem you can solve, the, the breadth of the problem you can solve is really to the depth of discomfort you’re willing to dwell. That perhaps is the biggest thing that you would see modeled at Apple where they would say, okay, we’re gonna take years to figure out the right way to solve this problem.

And I have some friends who spent two years locked in what they call the purple dorm to build the [00:20:00] iPhone. Wow. Right. They had two teams competing. One to build something based on the iPod, one to build something based on Mac o s 10. And they basically said, okay, we have to make a decision in two years.

Knowing Your Discomfort

We don’t know the right way thing to do. So if you’re willing to sign up, you know, and devote two years of your life. You know, you could be a part of finding out and perhaps building the real solution. And they had to live with the uncertainty of not knowing if this would ship, if they were doing the right thing but believing it in their hearts and then doing whatever it took to bring that thought into reality.

And that dwelling with the discomfort sitting with it and. knowing yours. You know, I, I, I often find it difficult to get people to imagine even doing that outside of Apple. And I think part of it is they find it just hard to believe that there’s anything worth that level of sacrifice. Sure. And the, the healthy way to look at it.

And it’s not always possible and you [00:21:00] make shortcuts when you have to. It’s to say, look, this is the thing that is so important to me. That I would rather fail trying than be content. Never knowing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, let me, let me ask a question. Lemme just give you the last point just as to Oh yes. The aor.

[00:21:18] A.O.R.T.A

Ernie: Yeah, right. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Ambition, openness, risk, thankfulness. And then the last aid, which I kind of already teased, is awareness. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. is you get, this is where you come to, and this is the thing that you’re most thankful for, is I suddenly understand. My strengths, my weaknesses, my insecurities, my dreams, much better than I did when I started this cycle.

And I understand reality. I understand other people. I understand what is ultimately of value and importance to me, and then now I can have a much more refined ambition and start this cycle all over again. You know, and maybe it’s like a refinement of the same thing. It’s like, okay, I’ve succeeded in my business now I wanna succeed in my marriage.

And [00:22:00] you pivot and that’s fine. Like, the point is, is that there’s no shame when you realize the point of the universe is to learn and grow and failure is just one step. That helps us. Unfold as my friends at Al l a, I like to say . This idea of unfolding is very curious. So somewhere in between r and t, you made a comment about the ego and being willing to risk some of the ego.

I’d kind of like to push into that space because this notion of building something. Requires ego, it requires you saying you have something to bring to the world, whether that’s a product or a service or you know, whatever. I have something to bring and I even have a responsibility to bring it. And there also are all of these spaces of you have to get ego out of the way and, you know, surrender your [00:23:00] ego.

Surrender Your Ego

So I kind of would like to hear where you go with that. Yeah, so this is where I’m still working on this, this framework. I actually have this role playing game. I’m designing with my teenage son called Quintessence, which is about these four or five phases. And, you know, one phase is all about you know, self-development and we call it you’re building ego points.

Because you wanna try and prove yourself, put yourself to the limit. You know, listen to the fire within you, right? And then the next phase is karma points. Every, all the ego points you built up have generated karma in the world. And now you have to work off all those ego points. Which have turned into karma points and you’re trying to decrease your Karma Point score.

And this, this framework is a lot about you push out into the world and then you pull back, like you have an idea that you’re pushing the world and you pull back and listen to the ideas and you push, you know, and you know, try and change the world and that the world pushes back. And and, and it’s funny cuz.

Before, it’s like, [00:24:00] oh man, I have all these karma points. I wish I hadn’t had so much ego. What did I do myself? Why did, but then when you discover in the third turn of the wheel is that all those karma points become race points that you can share with others. And you say, wow, thank God I made all those stupid mistakes.

[00:24:19] Making Mistakes

Ernie: And like I’ve had all this epic failures in my startup life because these become the treasures that I get to share with other people. So it’s that sort of reciprocal thing. I, I have this picture in my head. I haven’t worked out yet of like a four stroke engine and you can do the two-stroke engine, like a motorcycle, but it’s very noisy and, and efficient.

But if you have the grace to do the four stroke engine, you know, reciprocal motion, push, pull, push into the universe, pull back, push on an idea, pull back and learn. That reciprocal motion is where you actually build these engines of sustainable in. Oh, that is such a thought provoking image. I, while you were talking, I was [00:25:00] thinking about, okay, where’s the intersection with physics?

And it’s like, oh, right there. Right there was the intersection. And and yeah, physics is very much one of these things where you withdraw from the physical world, the material world, the financial world, to just try to contemplate the pure essence of how things are connected and relate to one. And it was a great educational experience, but it was also deeply artificial.

There’s the old saying that graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life. Hmm. You know, because apart from the occasional atomic bomb, there isn’t a lot of real world consequences to the things you’re studying. And a lot of my journey since leaving higher education, I did 11 years at places like m i t and Caltech is really trying to grapple.

Emotional Realities

The emotional reality of who I am as a being and the economic realities of ordinary people’s lives. And I’m still very much, you know, an elitist ivory tower [00:26:00] place, but I’d like to think I’ve learned a little bit about what it means to actually live in the world and care about other human beings. And, you know, it is hard because like you have to forget that in order to be able to think deep.

And grapple with what is the reality inside you? You need those places of withdrawal and seclusion. But if that’s all there is, it ends up becoming very hollow. You have to reemerge into the world and face the brokenness within and the brokenness without, to really get to the next level of actually understanding what is real and what matters.

And it’s just those rhythms of. And the and one of the things that I’m learning is that like I need to have patience with those who are in the phase right before and right after me, because I get frustrated that they’re not where I am. But I’m trying to, I was thinking this last week, I was talking about this with my son on Saturday.

You know, I realized that, you know, [00:27:00] They may be in a parallel phase, and rather than me trying to drag them back to my phase, I need to push them forward away from me to make their own mistakes. And this is hard when you’ve got a 14 year old son, you can only imagine the kind of mistakes he’s likely to make.

Being a Parent

But realizing that like, hey, if the goal is not to be a rock, to just be safe and comfortable, then we have to take risks and you know, It’s probably better at this stage. It was different than when he was younger. And maybe it’ll be different when he is older, but at this stage it’s probably better for him to make his own mistakes rather than repeating mine.

Sure. Yeah. You know, and not just my past mistakes, but saying like, well I think you should do this. He could be wrong. That’s the mistake I would rather make. Cause it feels safe. Sure. But you know, isn’t it better, you know, within some boundaries. But probably larger bound, less than he would like, but more than I would like , where he has the freedom to make his own mistakes and discover the [00:28:00] consequences and learn from them.

And. It’s hard because either we don’t want them to make mistakes or we wanna rescue them when they do. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of it, frankly, is actually self-compassion cuz it’s actually not about him. It’s about the shame I feel, the pain I feel am I as a parent processing my own shame and grief and pain so that I have space to let my son experience his own.

[00:28:27] Taking Moments

Ernie: And this is where I think the, the. The phrase I’ve been using, which I think is a, applies to business or family or whatever, is the idea of a moment is this realizing, Hey, you know, I was gonna sell something to a customer and I thought they would love it. And the customer says, eh, maybe we’ll get back to you.

Like, that’s embarrassing. It’s frustrating. It’s disappointing. It’s can be scary, but it’s like, hey, let me just take a moment and if I could take a moment and. Release the stress and [00:29:00] say, okay, let’s forget all the consequences. Can I be curious? And if I’m really lucky, I can be curious with them in real time and say, Hey, thank you for your honesty.

What I’m hearing is that what I pitched to you doesn’t really address what’s bothering you the most right now. I apologize for wasting your time. We just take a moment and help me understand what exactly is the problem that bothers you the most. That if you could solve, if it would solve that problem, you know, it would transform your life.

And if it’s not something that our company makes, maybe we can help you find someone who does. But I just wanna understand what is it that really matters to you? And being able to get out of my own hand all the emotions I’m feeling, and be curious and live in that state of wonder. And invite them in rather than trying to, as my usual instinct to try to, you know, browbeat them into agreeing with me , that is when these generative possibilities of unfolding open up.

Different Ideologies

Sure. Yeah. I really [00:30:00] like that illustration of that. I was thinking about just across, I mean, I don’t know if you mind telling us in general or specific how old you are. I would like to understand how these various. Ideologies developed throughout the different decades because the way you’re talking about things, I think would be very difficult for someone like your 14 year old to wrap his brain around.

Like, his brain isn’t even finished cooking yet. You know what I mean? , like, he’s, he is just not quite there yet. And I do think that we get frustrated when people are not in the same place that we are. Anyway. Yeah. Take that question again where you’d like it. Yeah, sure. So I think that I mean, I’d like to say you can put it onto decades these days.

It’s probably gonna be more like every four years because the world is growing. My son is growing up way faster than you know, I ever was. Sure. Yeah. Right. But I think the my journey was, I mean, for me it’s mostly a spiritual journey. [00:31:00] I chronicle my journey based on the understanding of my faith and the religion I grew up in and the religions I chose and.

the places my residents seem irrelevant and then, you know developing a spirituality. But I guess there’s this there’s these different levels people have of spirituality and one is the world is just the way it is. You know, we, and this is like, let’s call us the first 10 years or so, right?

The Way it Is

Is that you know, my parents believe what they believe. Technology is kind of the way it is. You know, everything works the way it. And like, that’s cool. You, you may like it, you may hate it, but it’s just the way it is. And then the next decade, the teens, you will, it’s a wait. I have agency. Maybe let’s, let’s, let’s look more, more generous.

The first state is a world of wonder, right? Everything is new. Everything is say you, it just, the fact that it is, is amazing. But then the next level is the state of agency. It’s like, Hey, I don’t have to just accept the world the way it is. I can have agency in it. I can change things. I can be my own [00:32:00] people.

I can choose my own friends. I can choose my own music. I can choose the way I dance. I can choose to do things. And that aligns with this idea of ambition and desire that I want things this idea of want. But then the next level, if you go on like the, the adult development scales is you identify with your wants, but then you identify with your values and you say, well, actually actually no, sorry.

The next thing Joshua wants is actually relat. I identify with, you know, the, my romantic partner with my peer group, with this company I joined. And these relationships are actually what defined me. And it’s really important that I be with my friends and so forth. And then the third level, if I remember is values.

Differing Values

It’s like, okay, I like these people. They’re my friends, but I realize they actually want more different things out of life than I do. I have different values than they do, and these values, And so I started thinking about my values, whether it’s truth or equality, or ambition or success[00:33:00] or love. And then the next stage after that is self authorship.

Is that I’m not defined by these values. I am defining, I, I, it’s not that I, I am not defined by the value. I have a value and I’m choosing consciously to have these values. These are things I can hold and say, well, you know, I do value justice but I also value achievement and there’s a tension there, and I can kind of define what I mean by those things to fit with the life I want to.

And then I think there’s a level beyond self-authorship, which is probably self forgetfulness, which maybe, you know, almost is returning the full cycle back to a state of nirvana. And then you reincarnate in and either literally or metaphorically and the cycle starts all over. But I think that the thing, look, you know, and I don’t wanna blow people’s minds too much and I wanna thank it to was like, boys realized like, We are all in this journey and [00:34:00] the journey’s happening faster, right?

[00:34:02] Self-Compassion

Ernie: You know, I go through the levels of spiritual development in a year that like, it takes my, took my, you know, my father decades to, to do, right? Sure. Cause the world changes and there is this competitive aspect as if the people that you’re depending on or the people you’re selling to are changing faster than you.

You know, you’re stuck. You, you, you become irrelevant. And so but I think the biggest phrase that I would wanna leave your, you know, we don’t have to wrap up just now, but I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned and I wanna leave, is this idea of self-compassion. You are exactly where you are supposed to be at this point in time.

Every success, every failure, every dream, every vend. The good, the bad, and the ugly. The universe willed for you to be here at this point in time. Receive it as a gift drink the bitter cup and say, okay, this wasn’t what I wanted. I’ve [00:35:00] lost a lot of things that I thought I had, but most of them I didn’t really own anyway.

And I’ve gained something much more precious, which is I can see reality in myself more clearly and I may not like. But it’s, I choose to believe it’s better to see reality as it is, than live in comfortable delusion and be thankful. And if you can find that point of thankfulness, then you can find that place of self-compassion is like, I don’t have to beat myself up for failing to be something other than what, what I am right now, but to dare to believe that this is a gift, and this is the starting point to become something more, right, is to.

Start with Thankfulness

Start from that place of thankfulness and then say, okay, I can be thankful, but you know, I feel like there’s still something left within me that I want to bring out into the world. What’s the old saying from the artist is to die empty. . I don’t wanna die thinking I didn’t write that novel. I didn’t sing that [00:36:00] song.

I didn’t tell that person I love them. I didn’t try to at least, you know, sell or ship a product. Right? And so then say, okay, I don’t wanna do it the way I did before cuz that was incredibly traumatic. , what’s a smaller you know, what is the openness I can. To like think about my ambition more precisely and more wisely.

And then what’s a small risk I can take to force myself? Even as just telling my friends, Hey, at the end of this month I’m gonna give you a blog post about this thing I wanna do. Like tell somebody that, and you know, take a small risk that’s achievable with a deadline, with people who care about you, who keep you accountable.

Slowing Down

And then, Or you know, if you’re, you know, going crazy, trying to keep a young family going or a business running, say, I’m just gonna take three hours on a Saturday morning to just sit with my journal and ask myself how I’m feeling. Cuz I never do that because I’m so busy being there for other people. But I’m just gonna carve out three hours just to be there for [00:37:00] myself and maybe I’ll just slam that bunk shut and not look at it for another month.

But at least I’ll have done that one wrist to look and see what’s hiding. All the striving and the achievement. And you know, that’s the exciting thing is that we do live in a world of extraordinary abundance. We’re not worried about being eaten by a sabertooth tiger and starving to death when winter comes most of us

[00:37:25] Being Peaceful and Compassionate

Ernie: You know, and a lot of the anxiety we create is because we don’t know what’s important, what’s important for us to survive, what’s important for us to thrive. And if we can accept that, yes, there are things that have to happen. Life is challenging. People we love are at risk of catastrophic failures in many cases.

But the best gift I can give the world is actually to be grounded and at peace so I can see them and their reality [00:38:00] clearly, rather than distorted by buying, need to be able to fix things quickly. We can create. That’s how I think we create this spiritual entrepreneurship, the sense of unfolding our own psychological development in a way that actually helps us build better product, build better companies, build better families, build better communities, and it is hard.

It is really, really hard. You know, I’ve been trying this in various forums since nine 11, and I feel like I’ve described more things I don’t know how to do than things I do know how to do. Sure. But I am encouraged that a, I am a more peaceful and compassionate human being than I was when I started, and certain things that were opaque to me are now translucent.

And certain things that were murky are now clear. Even if some things that were clear are now murky . Sure, sure. [00:39:00] And, but, but, but, and I guess maybe that’s the second thing is hope. This idea that hope is not guaranteed, but it’s realistic that I have a grounded hope that the world can be better than it has been, and that I can be better than I have been because I have seen.

Feeling Failure

and perhaps even more importantly, understood what can be done. You know, I saw an extraordinary miracle where Apple was six months away from bankruptcy becoming the most valuable company in the world. Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. And it’s like, you know, I, but you know, on a more personal level, I was having some real conflict with a family member a few years ago.

And I just ran out to Trader Joe’s just cause I couldn’t deal with it. And I was sitting there and this was like April of 2020 and it. It was Sunday afternoon, the parking lot was half empty, which never happens at Trader Joe’s . No. And then people were wearing mask lined up every six feet. And it’s like, [00:40:00] I, it was like God was saying to me, Ernie, you have no idea what’s possible, how much the world can change in a matter of weeks and months.

It is arrogant for you to feel despair, , you’re just not smart. Hmm. And, and maybe that’s the a, a good line to close on as a microscopic sale, I was going through, I, you know, building all these startups. I went through like seven startups after I left Apple. And just feeling failure after failure.

Like none of them were commercial successes. None of them got traction in the marketplace. And I went back to my hometown and I discovered that a bridge I had built as an eagle scout in high school had gotten torn away by the floods. Oh. After like 30 years. Yeah. And the guy from the Hark District who I worked with, he’s retired, he handed me a photo of the bridge and just left it at that.

Building a Bridge

And I looked at it and said, that just broke my heart. And it’s like, and I’m only here for a week, what can I do? But I went and talked to somebody at the park district and. [00:41:00] We just hashed the plans. Like, well, you know, and there, there’s no more Boy Scouts in our town. But he says, you know, there’s a young rotary club I think they call it Impact.

And he says maybe they’d be interested. So I called them and they said, yeah, let’s try it. And before we knew it, they had done a Kickstarter, raised a money, bunch of money, and they built a bridge. And I went back there and I told these kids, it’s like, you know, I was in a place where I felt like everything I had tried to do had fallen into.

And somehow this thing like, and ask the kids like, how many of you, like I asked the leaders, did you even think this would work? And they go, no. None of them really thought it would work. They’re just going along with it. And miraculously, a bridge was built. In fact, they built two bridges cuz they inspired enough people to, the partnerships donate enough money to build a second bridge.

Open Yourself  Up

People can walk. And it’s like, the thing I learned is that you are more powerful than you think. You. Yes. And you are not as smart as you think you are. [00:42:00] Yes. and living with those two truths is like, I’m not, and that’s like I have infinite power and in living space. Right. It, it’s, it is realizing that I can do anything.

If I’m willing to open myself to the universe to learn the hard lessons, it has to teach me. There is no limit to what we can accomplish. Sure. Ernie, what would you say to the young version of you? I’ve thought about this a lot and you know, like, what could I say that wouldn’t, that would change the trajectory?

Because all the mistakes I feel like I made were the necessary ones. I think the one thing I would say is you’re not gonna believe me, but someday you will discover that you are deeply, deeply loved. . Hmm. And that everything will have been worth. Yeah, that seems like something probably every young person in this country and the world probably [00:43:00] needs to hear.

[00:43:00] Mercy Ships

Ernie: Yeah, and possibly a few of us older folks too, from time to time. , . Oh my gosh. Ernie, thank you so much for just a very engaging and fun conversation. I appreciate you and your time and the work that you’re doing in the world. We mentioned at the beginning or before I started recording that I like to do a donation as a thanks for your time and you chose Mercy Ships, so we’ll send that donation to Mercy Ships in your name.

And again, just thank you. This was very fun. And actually, if I may ask you a favor, I’d like to do it in the name of my father, Dr. John Probakhar, who is a surgeon. Totally. I think he’s an a mercy ship. He’s done similar Crips like that. But I, it would mean a lot to me to just do that in the honor of my father.

And, you know, my father’s a little disappointed that I’m a PhD and not an actual doctor like my brother . Like, this is my one little way to kinda give back slash give back to him. So . Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s great. Of course we’ll do it.

 

End Credits

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts, or wherever podcasts are found.

Full audio episode found here.

Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

All Leave Better podcast episodes can be found here.

Music by Tom Sherlock.

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

 

Fighting Fire with Fire – Dave Albin

Dave Albin

Hey guys, I am  excited for this interview, but I did wanna let you know there are some tough things that are discussed at one point, some drug use,  an attempted suicide,  some gun violence. I just wanted you to know so that you have the opportunity to skip the episode if you want to

it’s a great episode, so I hope you join us, but definitely not at the expense of your mental health.

Miriam: [00:00:00] Okay guys, I am so excited to introduce you to Dave Albin. He’s someone I have actually been really looking forward to having a conversation with partly because of what your current business is right now, fire Walk adventures, but also partly because you spent 20 years with Tony Robbins and anybody who knows anything about self-development and growth and business growth and mindset knows Tony Robbins

welcome. I can’t wait to see where we go today.

Dave: Yeah, my pleasure. It’s, I’m excited to be here. This is, Good deal. Okay.

[00:00:35] Dave’s Fire in His Life

Miriam: So I know you have like this incredible story and the story, you

know, goes from maybe high to the lowest of the lows and then coming back up, do you mind just giving us some of your history and then we’ll get into where you’ve been and what you’re doing now?

Dave: Sure. So when I was born, I, I was born to a single mom mom was hardworking. She was [00:01:00] Rosie the Riveter in World War ii.

She helped build airplanes. She worked for McDonald Douglass, and she also worked at the Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood, which is right down, you know, on Hollywood Boulevard. And so when I was born, she also had two other sons. Both different fathers, and so it was just too much. It was just, I, I, I was way more than, you know, she could handle, so she put me up for adoption.

And who would’ve been my aunt and uncle? My, my biological mother’s sister adopted me at the age of five. And so then I moved in with them. I moved from Hollywood. They lived in Long Beach, California. And when I was around 11. They told me that I was adopted. . And shortly after that, things changed because my dad had sworn off drinking when they adopted me at five, and now I’m 11.

Childhood

And right after they told me they both started drinking. And so that sh that changed and altered everything. [00:02:00] You go from. Now being told these aren’t your parents and now they’re drinking and they’re acting out. So things got really bumpy, if you will, at around 11 years old. And I became fascinated with what happened.

You know, I had this beautiful childhood, you know, we used to go camping. We went, I was in Southern California. , we’d go to Big Bear, we’d go to Yosemite, we’d go to Lake Arrowhead. We went to all these really cool places and all of a sudden, boom, it just kind of came to a screeching hall. So I took a fascination on with alcohol because I was watching these two really cool people who were supposed to be my mom and dad turn into, you know, not such nice people.

Alcohol Fire

And so I tried alcohol at a very young age. Well, I had no. I mean, literally the first time I drank at a very young age, I, I, I was an alcoholic. I, it just took over. I mean, I, it was exhilarating. It was just, you know, it was like pouring rocket fuel into your blood

it just took over with all that, well, the alcohol, you [00:03:00] know, Got me into, into drugs. It was a gateway, no doubt about it. And I got into hard drugs pretty, pretty quickly. Well, to fast forward all that I didn’t get sober until June of 1988, June 8th, 1988. I woke up that morning and I couldn’t. I was done.

I just, I, I couldn’t, I couldn’t imagine living another day as painful as I had been living over the last couple of years. The emotional pain, the physical pain, the spiritual pain, I was done. And I, and the only thing I thought was to end this is put a, put a bullet in your head and it’ll stop. I knew that, I knew this pain would stop.

And so, and can

[00:03:41] Substance Abuse Fire

Miriam: I interrupt and ask really quickly, how, how many years had you been abusing substances at that point?

Dave: So I was, what? I was in my early thirties and I had been, I had been drinking and doing drugs since I was 12. So close to 20. Close to 20 years. Right. And, and, [00:04:00] and, you know, and when you’re doing drugs like that, You’re in that environment, you know, like Tony Robbins likes to say, you know, we are who we spend time with, and you better be really careful who you decide to spend time with because you will become who you spend time with.

Well, when you’re around drug dealers and pimps and prostitution and guns and violent, that was my peer group, right? Yeah. So that, that morning, June 8th, 88, guns in the mouth ready to pull the trigger, and I was married to a woman who had three kids. They were my stepchildren. And I thought, you know what?

This isn’t fair to them. Cuz when you pull that trigger, yeah, your pain goes away. But what about them? You’re in their basement, their house as well, and they’re gonna see, yeah. Now their pain starts. Their pain starts. They’re gonna have P T S D. Now, I didn’t know that at the time, but I know now that’s what would’ve developed.

Sure. And so now I’m kind of wrestling with it and I said, well go outside and do it. Go walk out into the woods. But they still would’ve had to deal with it. Right? It would’ve permeated through school. Oh my gosh. You know, these [00:05:00] kids father killed themselves. You know, and, and so really what it became was a moment of compassion for them.

Alcoholics Anonymous

And I thought, all right, so well now what are you gonna do? You know, I’m almost upset at them because I can’t kill myself. And I called a little organization, some of, I’m sure your listeners have, have probably heard of called Alcoholics Anonymous, and that was it. I, I, I called, they sent somebody to come pick me up.

I went, I went to four meetings on day. . Literally I went to a 1230, a four 30, a six 30, and an eight 30 meeting. So one meeting turned into a week, turned into a month, and they gave you a chip. They gave you a medallion for that, right?

And then a month turned into two, then three months, and then six months, and then a year. And, and then, you know, I picked up one, I don’t know if you can see it but that one there says 34 years. Wow. And I’ll pick up one. This year and June for 35 years. Wow. So what happened there was [00:06:00] that opened me up, you know, not only are you working the 12 steps, which put your life back together, I had also kind of opened me up to the personal development industry.

Tony Robbins and Fire

Well, I had a lot of insomnia. In the beginning cuz it was rough. Cuz when you’re coming off cocaine and heroin and alcohol all at the same time, I’m gonna tell you right now, it’s not easy. And I was up late one night. Like I, like I was a lot. I had in som. And there he was the man himself Tony Robbins Young, Tony Robbins. Really, you know, RA he’s talking about this.

And we’ll do more to a Was was this on tv? Is that what you’re saying? Yeah, no. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Late night tv. Okay. It was, it was an infomercial was what it was. And you know, he was really enthusiastic. And actually I was like even mad at him.

[00:06:42] Pain and Pleasure

Dave: Like, what a jerk, how, how can you be this positive about life? Right? Because I was so miserable and he talked about pain and pleasure, right? That we’ll do more to avoid pain than we will to gain pleasure. And I went, well, I’m in a lot of pain. And then he said, you know, the two, the two motivating factors in everybody’s life is that we’re [00:07:00] either motivated out of inspiration or desperation.

And I went, wow, I’m pretty. Yeah, and I bought, and I bought his program and, and it came on little white things called cassette tapes, and and I, and I got ’em. I unwrapped it, I plugged it in and I did, I went through the entire program and I did everything that man asked me to do. Then I read his book and then I loaned the tape program to a friend of mine and who was also an aa.

He had about a year and a half on me. He was about a year and a half ahead of me and. He called me seven years later and said, Hey, Alvi Tony Robbins is coming to town. W we can go see him live. He goes, dude, you got me into this. Let’s go see this guy. Calls me back an hour. And he said, done. We pick up the tickets that we’ll call. Here’s what they told us to do. Number one, bring snacks. You’re gonna spend a lot of time in the room. Number two, hydrate. Drink a lot of water.

Bring a Good Attitude

Number three, bring a [00:08:00] good attitude. And number four, be ready to play full out. I said, Dan, how much was the ticket? He said, 700 bucks, . I said, I’ll play full out, don’t you worry. Yeah. And this is, I’m ready to hang up the phone. He goes, oh, oh, oh, oh, wait, wait, wait. By the way, guess what? We’re gonna be doing a fire walk.

I mean, literally when he started to say that, it was almost like everything just slowed down. Yeah. And I remember. We’re gonna do what? And my brain’s going, no, Uhuh ain’t gonna happen.

Miriam: Yeah, so let me, let me interrupt you for a second because I wanna hear about this piece, but I wanna give a little bit of background. I know what you’re talking about, but not all our listeners do.

So before we get to the fire walk, what were named three things that were in Tony’s tapes or the books or whatever, that helps you get your life on track because self-develop. Is like a river and you can step in it any place [00:09:00] along, you know, wherever you are in your life, it’s gonna pull you forward in a couple different ways.

What were a couple things that took you, from what I’m gonna assume, your life was in total chaos with all this drugs and everything. Yep. You’re starting to get off the drugs, you still don’t know the right people yet, blah, blah. Tell, gimme a couple tips. Self-development things that took you from chaos to less chaos.

We are the Architects Fire

Dave: Wow. That’s really a great, great stopping point to ask those questions. No one’s ever done that. I think the first one would be, I learned early on that what doesn’t challenge you, doesn’t change you. Okay. Which, which was number one. Number two was we are who we spend time with. Yeah, for sure. And then number three was, why don’t we get what we want?

And the answer to that is there’s a story that we, that we, that we make up along the way, right? Because everything that happens to any human being on this planet, we create a story [00:10:00] in and around whatever that was, whether it’s good or bad. Yeah. Right. So some people, bad things happen. They create a bad story.

And so the bottom line is that, you know, we’re the architects of that story.

Yeah.

Miriam: So what was the, in a sentence, what was the story you were telling yourself at the time.

Dave: You know that I was, you know, I got kicked outta high school. I was stupid. I had never amount to anything. It doesn’t matter. I’ll never get out of this.

Miriam: And you were living U up or down to that, down to that story?

Dave: Yeah. Oh yeah. I, it, it had

e everything that I was living is what I told myself. Yeah, it totally, and a lot of it makes sense and a lot of it wasn’t true. Of

Miriam: course. No, of course not. But it’s what you believed and so then it’s what you lived out.

Right.

[00:10:43] The Firewalk Conference Fire

Miriam: Okay, so hang on then. So your buddy gets you these tickets and $700 back then. I don’t remember. I think it was probably a lot of money. I’m pretty sure Tony charges something like five or $7,000 for these conferences now, which was probably comparable. That was a lot of [00:11:00] money. So now you’re going in, going, yeah, I’m gonna play full out.

Okay. You’re gonna play full out. Take us back to the conference and the fire walk.

Dave: All right. So we get there. It’s the day of the event. Yeah. And we, and we we get, we take our seats at around two o’clock in the a. So Tony takes the stage at around two. Well, the next thing I know, it’s after midnight and, and, and, and as he’s getting ready to take us out into this giant parking lot.

I’m with 3000 people. Yeah. So there’s a lot of people there, right? Well, as he’s getting ready to take us out into this giant parking lot, he says, take your shoes off. And I’m like, uhoh. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. I’m not doing this fire.

So, and as he gets you ready to go out there, he gets you to start chanting.

Right. So everybody’s going, yes, yes. Yeah. And so when you’ve got 3000, 3,500 people chanting, it’s intense. And they’re all doing it walking out there, right? There’s a giant [00:12:00] fire over here in the corner.

Fight or Flight

It’s just massive. It’s been burning all day. And so what they did was, is they would take wheelbarrows over to the fire and, and the coals burned all day and they render, they burn down, then they load them into, into a wheelbarrow. Then they would take a wheelbarrow and they would pull it in between two lanes of sod of grass.

Right about oh three feet wide, maybe 15 feet long, and then they would take a flathead shovel and they would just shovel the coals out onto that grass. Sure. And that’s what you, that’s what you would walk on? Yeah. Well, in addition to the chanting, he’s got African drummers, right. So it’s like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun dun, dun dun.

And you’re like, you know, your brain is, you’re fried. Yeah. You’ve got no references for this. Your brain is just full. You know, fight or flight and it’s, it’s intense is all I can say. Well, remember, I’m not gonna walk, so what’s my strategy? I’ll just go hide out in the [00:13:00] back. Now I, now I’m dealing with the other times in my life where I ran from fear. I let fear take things away from me, or fear control me, right? So what’s it gonna be? Forget everything and run, which is what I’m doing. Or is it gonna be face everything and rise?

I’m going to the back cuz that’s what I’m used to. That’s my pattern that I’m running and it’s not a good strategy. . And the reason this is not a good strategy is Tony’s people know where all the cowards are . And so here they come.

You’re Not Alone Fire

They come looking for us because I wasn’t alone. I can tell you that. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure. And here comes this guy out of nowhere and he gets probably 20 feet from me and he makes eye contact with me and he gets a little closer and he looks in, he kind of leans in a little bit very calmly, and he goes, are you okay

And when we’re not, okay, what do we say? Oh yeah, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m good. Oh yeah. All good here, buddy. You betcha. Never been. Right. I’m outta my [00:14:00] mind right now at this point. And so he asked me a question. He said, well, are you gonna walk tonight ? And I was like, absolutely not.

He goes, Hey, that’s cool. That’s not a problem. We don’t want you to do anything you don’t want to. And I went, wow, okay. I like this guy. He’s my ticket outta here. And then he asked me a question that changed my life forever.

And the question was, well, wouldn’t you at least like to watch? And I said, well, I’m thinking, yeah, I’d like to watch these idiots burn their feet off. This should be pretty enter. And I said, sure. He goes, well, you’re not gonna be able to see anything from way back here. And he is right. I, there was a hundred yards between me and where they were, the lanes were, and where they were actually walking.

Getting in Line Fire

And I had nothing but a sea of 3000 people in front of me. I couldn’t see anything. So he said, well, you’re not gonna be able to see anything from back here. You’re gonna have to, you’re gonna have to get in line. All right. . [00:15:00] Now in his defense, he was telling the truth. Yeah. Because I couldn’t see anything and I wouldn’t be able to see anything.

So I got in line thinking, I’ll just get in line. No big deal. And I saw them and they were walking on fire and my brain is like, what?

In? What, how is this possible? What’s going on? What, what’s wrong with these people? I mean, my brain’s going nuts. And the next thing I know, this guy comes up and he whispers in my ear and he said, he knows when you’re ready. When he says, go, you go. And I remember thinking you didn’t get the memo, pal. Let me tell you where you can go.

[00:15:39] Keep Your Eyes Up

Dave: I’m not doing this. Yeah. And so I just, and all of a sudden I’m watching and I’m watching, and. I look down and there I am. Yeah, I’m at the front of the line. My heart’s beating outta my chest. I’m looking down. You can see the coals on the grass. They’re bright red, glowing. [00:16:00] There’s a wheelbarrow there. You can feel the heat coming off, and there’s a trainer standing at every lane for guys like me, and I’m staring into the abyss under these calls, and all of a sudden the trainer goes Eyes.

And I went, oh geez. Yeah. Okay. Eyes up. Well, yeah, I’m in a room with Tony Robbins for 10 hours and guess what he teaches you? Keep your eyes up. Don’t stare at what you fear. You wanna look to the celebration in, so the outcome that you’re looking for to break through, breaking through that fear. And my eyes are up and he goes, squeeze your fish and say, yes.

And I went, yes. And he went stronger. And I went, yes. You know, I’m kind of like, what, who is this guy? And then he got in my face and he screamed at me and he said, screamer. And, and now I’m ticked off, right? And I threw my hands in the air and I screamed at the top of my voice, yes. And he goes, go.

And I took off. [00:17:00] And so they positioned two guys at the end of the. And they stop you. They’re like, stop, wipe your feet and celebrate. If those guys weren’t there, I would’ve walked all the way to Albuquerque at that point, right?  Cause you’re in such a mm-hmm. in such an incredible state. And, and here’s what’s interesting.

Success

And so next thing I know, I thought I burnt my feet. It felt like I burnt them and I looked at my feet and they were dirty, but they weren’t burnt. Hmm. So I just walked on Cole’s for that are a thousand degrees. I was successful at it and I had no clue how I did. None. Zero. And I could get into all kinds of science and technology and physics and all this kind of stuff.

And to this day, having done this now for, what, almost three decades, I, I don’t know. I just don’t know, and I don’t even, right,

Miriam: so, so pause for a second because our audience doesn’t know that. Then after this, at some point you started to work for Tony and you were his fire guide. Like this became your job at a certain point in time.

[00:17:59] The FireWalk

Dave: [00:18:00] And of course I don’t know any of that at in the moment, right? No, I just know I’m standing with 3000 people and I literally started interviewing people. I. They gotta, people have gotta be burnt.

And so I started asking people, Hey did you, did you walk? Yeah. Did you get burnt? They’re like, no, no, no. Everybody said no, but here’s where it got really interesting for me was the next day when I came to that event with 3000 other people that all fire walked the night before, it was the most unbelievable.

Connection humanistically with a group of people that I’d ever experienced in my entire life. Yeah. And that includes, that includes playing sports, the camaraderie of all that. I’d never seen anything like it in my life. People

Miriam: would, well, you guys faced your hugest fear and you did it and it bonded you.

It bonded us, yeah. Because here’s, here’s what was happening. People were laughing, they were crying, they were telling their stories, and it was all in and around that. That fight or flight [00:19:00] moment when they decided to walk and, and they did it right? So that’s what intrigued me. What’s going. That if that brought people together like that, unlike anything I’d ever saw or experienced, I wanted to know more.

Yeah. And so what I found out, Tony uses a lot of volunteers and I found out later, after the event I could get an application, fill it out, send it in, and they might approve you to come crew, cuz Tony will use 300 people.

Family First

So I did that, and then the next thing I know, that was in 95, and by the time 96 rolled around, I got hired as a subcontractor because I had a security background and I had a military background. So they brought me into help with his celebrities. Next thing I know, I’m, I’m on the fire team. And then in 2003 Tony brought me in and said, Al we’d like you to take over all of my fire walks [00:20:00] globally.

But I homeschool my kids. No, my kids, my family are more important. Period. That’s, that’s non-negotiable. And he, he spoke right up. He said, oh wow, I missed that.

He said, well, what if we pay to have them travel with us? Would that help? And I’m like, well, yeah, of course it would.

Where’s our first event? And I said, Sydney Australia. And so that’s how we started literally, you know, their first event. And then, you know, they went everywhere. They went to Hawaii with me. They went to London went to Europe. They, we went all over to United States. And I just want to go on record saying that Tony and his wife Sage who he married later in the process during all this, treated my family like gold, They loved my kids.

And then we just went along and I, and it was just, you know, event after event, after event, after event and celebrities and just all over the world and, you know, it was spectacular. It’s a dream. I mean, you know,

Miriam: [00:21:00] What kept it from getting boring to you? Because sometimes when people do the same thing over and over and over, it gets boring.

What kept your heart  in it?

[00:21:09] Fulfillment vs Failure

Dave: Because it’s, And this is what a lot of entrepreneurs miss, right? They achieve at a high level, but it’s not matched with fulfillment. And if you don’t match your achievement with fulfillment, it’s failure. And I learned that early on. Right, you can make all the money in the world.

And I got news for you. That doesn’t mean you’re successful. It doesn’t mean anything. It just means you got a, on a bunch of money. But how do you feel inside?

Getting to Google

And so, I mean, and I, and I continue to do that to this day. It’s, it’s one of the coolest experiences anyone can. To see people raise their self-worth, raise their self-confidence, raise the belief about themselves, cuz I don’t know of anything else on the planet that changes a human being in the powerful state that fire walking does.[00:22:00]

And that’s why, you know, and, and here’s where this starts to get interesting, right? In 2014, I’m driving down the road and my phone rings right. And it’s Google and Google wants to hire me. If you’re not under any contractual obligation or non-compete, we’d like to talk to you about hiring you to do a gig for us in Mountain View for 148 of our executives.

And you know, what’s your budget for this? And they. This. And I went, okay, I can work with you guys. there were enough zeros on that one that allowed you to do it. . Right? .

So, and can I ask, at this point, were you still working full-time for Tony or had you guys parted ways at that

Dave: point?

Had I had tapered off a little bit, but I was still with Robin’s research. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. . Okay. And then, you know, so the next thing I know I’m on an airplane headed to, to, you know, San Mateo. You’re a high school dropout. You’re, you, you thought you were dumb and stupid and you do weren’t gonna amount to anything. And all this [00:23:00] limiting beliefs and that story that we talked about earlier that I had created. And the next thing I know, I’m standing on stage in front of Google.

Fixing Company Culture

Yeah. And the next thing I know I’m at NASA. And, and I’m in front of, you know, astronauts and then I’m at Notre Dame, and then I’m at Virginia Tech, and then I’m at Remax and Heineken and the eo, the EO organization and this on and on and on and on and on. And so it, it, it just, it, it built mo, it built momentum.

I was really the only guy that could bring that level of intensity of a paradigm shift experience you know, to a company, cuz you know what CEOs get it. Most of them, most, most top entrepreneurs know that what doesn’t challenge you doesn’t change you. You wanna bring a bunch of people together and play Jeopardy.

Great. You wanna bring a bunch of people together and play golf, you know, for, for, you know, for these corporate meetings. Great. But that’s not gonna change anybody. No. And right now, as you, I’m sure you’d agree, [00:24:00]

we just went through the biggest, you know, we got ripped. For all kinds of different reasons.

Right, right. Mask wearing, not wearing masks, vaccines not getting vaccine political. I love Donald Trump. I hate Donald Trump. And it just tore people apart within companies. Yeah. And so I’ve had conversations with CEOs and I’m like, so, you know, you got a lot of dissension going on. Yeah. How are you gonna fix it?

They’re like, we don’t know. Yeah. And I’m, and I’m, I’m here to tell you, if you don’t fix it, guess what? It’s gonna cost you production. Because if you can take two people that hate each other and they’re not working together, harmonistically, their production’s gonna go down.

[00:24:39] Transition to Dave’s Company

Miriam: It’s not gonna work at all. Lemme ask this transitional question about good. I mean, really, Tony, obviously, he doesn’t have a corner on the market on fire walks, but he’s the one who made it a thing. Why was it okay for you to go and do this with other companies or how, I mean, I don’t know. I know since Covid, [00:25:00] he’s moved a lot of his stuff to entirely virtual and stuff like that, and so maybe it’s not that he’s not doing it in person, but.

It seemed from your bio that you went with this blessing. So, and you know, you developed your own company doing this and obviously it’s doing really well. A lot of times I think there is Enmity between people within companies because someone feels like someone stole something from them or you know, took their ip.

There’s non-competes all of this stuff where it’s like, Hey, this is mine and now you’re taking it, but I’m not under the impression. That’s what it was like. So how, how did that transition happen? I think that’s just important as my listeners are, you know, working with people, trying to work with people, trying to work with ideas and these sort of things can destroy friendships.

Dave: First of all, great question and you’re absolutely spot on. Tony certainly doesn’t have, you know, an edge on the market [00:26:00] when it comes to fire walking cuz fire walking in and of itself has been around for hundred.

Where Firewalking Came From

They’re, it may even be over a thousand years. The Tahitians. Yeah. Go look at the Tians fire wire. They do fire walking, fire handling, all kinds of stuff. The people of India, oh my gosh, you wouldn’t believe them. They do fire walking at a level that’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen here in the west.

So, you know, and the Indu Europeans, before they went into battle, they went, they had fire walking.

The Polynesians, the Hawaiians, the Native American Indians. I live here in the

Appalachian Mountains in the northwestern part of the state of North Carolina. So I’m very close to the Tennessee and the Virginia border. And, and a lot of this area up here was inhabited by the Cherokees. They fire walked up here.

So, you know, again, Tony learned from an individual who taught him how to do fire walking many, many years ago. And so it wasn’t like he’s the guy that [00:27:00] l figured it out. He learned it from somebody else who learned it from somebody else who learned it from somebody else, right? So there’s nothing new in the world as they say.

It’s just recycled for. And that’s really what, what happened here, and that’s what I did with it. I took it to another. I, I brought in, well, tell me about the Cherokees. How did they do it? Tell me about the Ians, how did they do it? Tony Robbins only did it one way. Sure. High, high energy, you know, peak state and, and go across.

Right. If you wanna see what it looks like, go Google Oprah’s Fire Walk and you’ll see exactly how it’s taught at a, at a Robin’s event. But I don’t do it that way.

No.

[00:27:43] Being Different

Miriam: And let me pause you for a second because I think the point that I’m interested in is what was the conversation like between you and he where you’re like, I want to do this on my own.

I wanna create something different. I’m grateful to you, blah, blah. You know what I’m saying? [00:28:00] You manage to preserve your relationship and yet create your own company. And that’s something that’s very different.

Dave: Well, and because I did it in a way that was congruent with

what he teaches from the stage, right? Because I had a group of people that worked with me who were like my assistant captains, who could take over my position just like that, no problem.

And, and that’s part of what I convey to him. Tony, you’re in good shape. I’m not leaving you an lurch. You don’t need me anymore. Yeah. You see that guy and you see that girl and you see this, you see these people, any one of them can take over this fire walk. Yeah. And, and they, and they’ve learned everything from me.

Which I learned from, you know? Right. It all got passed down. Right, right. So you’re in, you’re in good shape. I’m not leaving you. And you know, we had a really long conversation. We talked for hours in the green room about all kinds of things because, you know, we were together at nine 11. We did a big fire walk there.

Going His Own Direction

And, and so, you know, all the people’s lives and I mean, we [00:29:00] had a really good. Yeah, I mean, it was fun. My family got to go with me, right? So I was a very, very, very blessed guy, and I got. Be in a position to be able to facilitate something that is literally probably one of the most life-changing experiences any human can experience on this planet.

Yeah, right, right. You can jump out of a plane, but it’s not like fire walking. It’s just not No, you can go.

Miriam: Yeah. So let me interrupt and ask what made you want to go. Your own direction, like as you were doing it. Good things. I love it. My family, Tony’s awesome, blah, blah. What made you want to do it on your own?

Dave: Because it was time for me to, to, to create my own legacy. Yeah. The Dave Alban Fire Walk Legacy. Yeah. Not the time. It’s time for you to fly.

You know, it’s like, it’s like knowing, it’s like being a professional athlete, if you will, and knowing when to leave. Yeah. Knowing when to go. It was my time. Yeah.

Miriam: Yeah, there was a deep knowing. That’s what I hear you saying, you’re your soul kind of knew and [00:30:00] it was time.

Miriam: I’m sure there were tons of connections because of Tony and whatever, but it, what, how long would you say from inception of your business to present day did it take to get it really to take off? And I mean, when Google’s calling you, that’s a thing that helps.

Glass Walk

That helps. It does. I did two gigs for Google. I went back the following year and two and, and after. And by the way, we did a glass walk.

And so they were graduating and so we did the, we did the glass walk because I won’t do a fire walk during the day. Gotta be done at night. I have to see the color of those coals.

It’s a safety issue. So we did the glass walk.

Well at the second one we did for Google, two of the executives set me down. Well, they were sitting, I was sitting at the table with them at lunch, and they basically said, Hey listen Dave, we’re not here to try to tell you what to do, but you may want to consider [00:31:00] doing this and taking this out to corporate america.

Because I can tell you right now, there’s no one else out here doing it at this level. Yeah, yeah. And we know we’re Google . Yeah. So, you know. That’s awesome.

The dominoes have fallen perfectly and so I knew Yeah. And I, and it was all those things, right. Everything in my life. That it ever happened to me, brought me to that moment when they said, if I were in your shoes, this is what I do.

Yeah. And so that makes sense.

[00:31:28] Why Does Firewalking Work?

Miriam: Yeah. So I don’t know if this is you know, like magicians can’t share their secrets. But I’m wondering if you’re able to share at least a little bit of why it works, that people don’t get cut walking on the glass or they don’t get burned walking on the coals. Or, I’d even saw some of the things on your website where, you know, the, I don’t know what it’s called, but the arrow test, the arrow to the throat and stuff like that.

Yes, that one. Can you explain to me a little bit about It’s, it has to do with [00:32:00] mindset and then a whole bunch of other factors.

Dave: It goes back to what I learned, that first question you asked me, what doesn’t challenge you, doesn’t change you. If you don’t, if you don’t face fear and deal with it, it’s gonna deal with you the rest of your life. It will continue to lie to you.

It will continue to take things from you. It will tell you that you’re not worthy, what? You’re not smart enough, you’re gonna get burnt. I mean, all those things don’t get married. You know, it’s overrated. Have kids. Oh my gosh. I mean, it’s just on and on and on. And so again, the, the fears we don’t overcome become our limits.

Mm. Period. Yeah. And that’s just how that works. So the fire itself you’ve gotta believe, and here’s the thing, when you go out there to that fire, you better give it it’s full attention.

If you think you’re gonna go out there and you’re gonna take this ego and you’re not gonna pay much attention to it, and you’re gonna talk at it and scream at it.

Give 100%

But I wouldn’t recommend you do. Because I can tell you I’ve seen guys do that [00:33:00] and they take about that second step and they are high step in it, or they jump off the lane. So you gotta believe, right? I think Henry Ford said it best, right? If you think you can, or you think you can’t, you’re right.

You’re right. Either way, you gotta go out. You gotta be in a peak state. You have to focus. Hundred percent right now. Don’t think about what happened yesterday or tomorrow in that right now. Stay in the moment, just like Eckhart Toll teaches in the power of now. You wanna stay right there in that moment.

I’ll show you the Tony Robbs. You know, it’s high intensity. It’s kind of like, it’s like an MMA fighter coming into the ring, right? They’re just not kind of walking in going, okay, I’m gonna go kick his butt now. No, it’s not like that, right?

they’re like intense, right? And so all those chemicals are firing off in their brain, so that’s one way to do it. High intensity physiology will get you across, but the Cherokees don’t do it that way. The Ians don’t do it. That. [00:34:00] They basically, they’re looking at this as an element. They’re respecting it, they’re loving it.

Respecting the Fire

They know without fire, life doesn’t exist. So they give it, they honor it with that. And so they just put their hands up, they put their, they put their eyes up and they completely submit and they just walk across it and it’s beautiful. They just mo, you know, some people like the high intensity, they walk really fast, right?

Thinking that’s the I That’s the idea to do it right? Nah, no, you can. You can just take your time and walk right across it. And if you’re loving the fire and respecting the fire and honoring the fire, you just walk right across it. Yeah.

Miriam: Yeah.

[00:34:42] Honor and Respect

Miriam: So what does that mean in terms of your life? What does it mean to honor and respect and keep your eyes up and your shoulders back in your life?

Dave: Physiology is. You, you know, how you, how you posture, how you hold yourself, how you talk, how you move, how [00:35:00] you communicate. You’re, you’re sending messages to yourself and those around you. So it’s very, very important in terms of the physiology and how you move and what you say to yourself. I teach this all the time in my seminars.

I’m like, you know what? You better be really, really careful what you tell yourself, because if you tell yourself that you suck and you’re not smart, man, it’s one of the worst things you can. Because you start to believe that. You have to believe. One of the things you have to believe is for you to be, for any listener right now to be on your podcast listening to this, do you know what it took for all of us to be here right now?

And here’s what I mean by that. What were the, what were the odds mathematically, what had to happen for you to be alive right now listening to this podcast? What were the chances? What were the odd. Well, right, cuz you got a mom that’s over there and a dad that’s over there. They’re the only two people outta 6 billion people that could create you.

Write a Better Story

Right? How many eggs did mom drop in her lifetime? [00:36:00] Well, there’s only one that can create you and dad’s like, whoa. I hoped. Okay, dad, you did, you know, you contributed a group of swimmers, let’s say a nice way of saying it. And, and how many swimmers were in that group? Well, if you, if you talk to an O G B Y N, you’ll get a number somewhere around 60 to a hundred million.

Yeah. So you were in a group of 60 to a hundred million and you got there and you broke through. You were one in 600 or 60 million. So again, mathematically, what does that look?

Well, and I’m not even bringing in your grandparents, your great-grandparents, and your great-great-grandparents. The miracle of life is a miracle. Y you’re about one in 400 trillion. So the decisions you make now rise you up in, in the future generation, just the way it works.

So, you know, [00:37:00] with that said, you know, again, you wanna change your life, change your story. Write a better story.

Eric Wyer

I’ve got a guy that I love. His name is Eric Wyer, and Eric’s a cool dude. Put him in a kayak. You had a see him. He’s a nutcase man. He can go down any river you throw him into, put him on a mountain bike and he can mountain bike, just about anything.

In addition to that, he’s climbed the seven highest mountains on seven continents skies. This dude’s, he’s, he’s a dude, he’s a bad dude, and he’s got something physically wrong. He’s blind. He’s blind. He climbed the seven highest mountains on this planet. By the way, I tell this to all my audiences and, and once I tell him that, I’m like, I don’t wanna hear your excuse because it’s not true.

You made it up. How can a, how can a blind guy ride a [00:38:00] mountain bike? Like you’ve never. How can he navigate a kayak down the Colorado River, you know, in the Grand Canyon? How can he climb the seven highest mountains on earth? And he did it blind. What kind of a mindset do you think he has?

[00:38:18] Story You Tell Yourself

Miriam: Yeah, I was gonna ask, what’s the story he’s telling himself?

Dave: He, he had a great father who told him, dude, the only limits you have are yours. Whatever you tell yourself. So you can do whatever you want.

Same thing here. Elon Musk, like the guy, hate the guy. He said, you know what, I believe I could shoot a rocket into space, bring it back down through the atmosphere and land it on a barge in the middle of the ocean.

Really? Really? Elon? I mean, so you know what I. Never underestimate what a human being can do. Never underestimate what a small group of people can do to change [00:39:00] the world. Indeed. It’s pretty much the only thing that ever has, and that’s kind of where we are right now in our society. We need people to step up.

We need people to go, I’m not listening to the mainstream media. I’m done. I’m over that. I’m not doing it. Yeah.

Miriam: This has gone so many interesting places. Of course, the show notes are gonna have, how to get ahold of you, how to, you know, find your company if they wanna hire you for a fire walk for a corporate event, all of that’s gonna be in there. What would you like to leave people with?

Dave: Well, I’ll I 2023 is probably gonna be my last year. I announced that back in December. So, you know, if you wanna hire me you better get a hold of me fast because

I’m sure. So that’s, that’s just that part.

You know, the, the, I guess the. You know, I think the thing that I like to leave with people is like, look, stop looking for [00:40:00] heroes and be one.

Create Magical Moments

Miriam: Ah, now I love that. Woo. That’s a quote right there. Stop looking for heroes and be one and be one. You know, we can each be the hero of our story, not only to ourselves, but to the people our lives touch.

Dave: I’ll add one more little piece, and that is look for ways to create magical moments. Yeah, and I’ll, and I’ll give you a really quick example. So every year the Girl Scouts come out and they sell their cookies.

So basically what I do is I walk up and I go, Hey girls, well look at all the cookies you got. You’ve been selling some cookies today.

In fact, I wanna buy $200 worth of cookies. But there’s a catch. And she says, okay, what’s the catch? And I said, the catch is I don’t want the cookies. Here’s what I’m, here’s what I’m proposing.

I want you to take the cookies, I want you to take the girls, I want you to call an old folks home, and I want you to call the director. And say, Hey, here’s who I am. I’m with the Girl Scouts. We got [00:41:00] cookies, I got the girls. If you have some people there that have been forgotten and they don’t get any visitors anymore, the girls are gonna have some questions and some cookies, and would like to send them over to your facility and help brighten their day and create an absolute magical experience for not only the girls, you know, the Girl Scouts, but for the, for some of your residents.

Connecting with People

Ahh. And it’s, now, think about what you just did. You know, we all know you throw the rock in the water, it’s in ripples. Think about that. But see, once you start doing things like that, , guess what helps you? Do you start looking for other ways to create magical moments? Yes. I like to connect with people at Walmart.

I like to connect with people that are in service industry, whether they’re a server in a restaurant, or they work in a grocery store or, or whatever. I look for ways to create magical moments. So you ask yourself, and, and this is one other thing that I’ll leave you [00:42:00] with Tony. Ask a quality question.

You’ll get a quality answer. You know, how can I go to Walmart today? Create a magical moment and enjoy the process. Your brain goes, oh, okay. Let’s look for that answer. You know, sometimes I’ll go up to the check. And, and, and I’ll say, gosh, I don’t know what candy bar to buy. And, and I’ll look at the cashier and I’ll say, what’s your favorite candy bar?

Two Reciepts

She’ll say, oh, I love Reese’s Peanut butter cups. Great. I go in, I grab two Reese’s Peanut butter cups. I pay for my order, close that out. Then I say, Hey, I wanna buy these and I pay for that separately. And I say, give me two receipts. And she gives me two receipts. And then I take the bag of the receipts and I hand it to her and I walk away.

I love it. I love it. Dave, why do you get two receipts?

Why don’t you just throw the peanut butter cups in the other so that, so one receipt, one receipt goes in the bag and the other one went with. So that way they have their own, their own receipt. So they can’t say that [00:43:00] they didn’t buy it. Yes. Okay. That makes sense.

Yep. Ah, very good. Dave, thank you so much for an amazing interview. This was so much fun. I love what you’re doing. I love that. Just your life was turned around by some key moments, and I love that your life intersected with mine, so it’s really good. Yeah.

Dave: Thank you. Thank you. Me too. Fire, fire, fire , fire, fire

 

End Credits

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts, or wherever podcasts are found.

Full audio episode found here.

Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

All Leave Better podcast episodes can be found here.

Music by Tom Sherlock.

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.