Charles Read tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax tax

 [00:00:56] Miriam: I am excited today to have Charles Reed with us. [00:01:00] And you can see on if you’re watching the video, you can see his company is called, Get Payroll.

[00:01:05] I love the name because it tells exactly what you do. And if I’m not mistaken and did my math, right, you have had this company in payroll related services for over 30 years now, is that correct?

[00:01:17] Charles: That’s correct Miriam. Yes.

[00:01:19] Miriam: All right. Well, you’ve been, you are a senior executive. You’ve been an entrepreneur for over 50 years with financial leadership. I think some of the things I’m really interested in, in the context of this conversation are your involvement with the IRS and your understanding of compliance.

[00:01:37] And before I lose my listeners, We all have to pay attention to this money thing, because it’s gonna mess us up if we’re not careful. So whether you have a business or you don’t have a business, this is an important episode to listen to because Charles is gonna talk with us about some of the changes and some of the things that are going on, and we’re just excited to have you.

[00:01:59] Charles: [00:02:00] Thank you, Miriam. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:02] Miriam: Absolutely.

Inflation Today

[00:02:04] Miriam: From a financial person’s perspective, what you are seeing in the inflation, recession space, and how that’s impacting what you’re doing with your money and your thoughts and your spending let’s, let’s just start there and then we’re gonna go, you know, wherever the conversation takes us.

[00:02:23] Charles: Obviously inflation is here with a vengeance. I remember it very well in the eighties. Cuz I’d bought a house with a 12% mortgage rate. Oh my gosh. It was variable. So it, it, it, it was going down. So I remember the last big one and this one is just as bad. It’s not going to get better immediately. The only saving grace is the employment market it’s still full employment.

[00:02:46] If you want a job, you can get a job. The jobs are available and easy to find, and they’re paying more every day. Because of inflation. Employers are finding that if they have don’t raise their pay they’re not attracting people.

[00:02:59] Obviously we’re [00:03:00] in the payroll business. We see those rate changes come through every day. So we, we see what’s happening with average wages and so on and so forth. And that brings one in interesting thing. Minimum wage is basically a non-existent item. It’s out there.

[00:03:16] It’s the law. And a few people really try to use it, but the vast, vast, vast majority of people don’t pay anybody at minimum wage.

Advice for the Younger Generation

[00:03:26] Miriam: Yeah. What would your input be for younger people? People between the ages of 25 and 40, you know, in that age range where they’re like, oh my gosh, – they haven’t lived through some of these periods to know how it plays out.

[00:03:42] And they’re just seeing their costs go higher and higher. And they’re sort of going, ah, I don’t know what to do here.

[00:03:51] Charles: This too shall pass. Yeah. Inflation will recede prices will stabilize. They will stabilize at a higher point, but your [00:04:00] earnings will be higher. So you shouldn’t be worse off in the end. In the meantime, it’s difficult, it’s a pain and you’re going to have to be careful.

[00:04:12] You need to work hard and you need to invest. You need to save and yeah, it looks like that savings isn’t doing much, but if you invest it in growth stocks, preferably then over time it will overcome inflation and you will become wealthy.

[00:04:29] I taught high school for five years – I taught intro to business every morning.

[00:04:33] Before work, I’d go in and teach one class, then come in and run my business.

[00:04:37] Miriam: That’s awesome. Awesome.

Invest Early

[00:04:38] Charles: It was a lot of fun. They kept me young and I talked to ’em about compound interest and invested and so on. And one young lady was working at McDonald’s and I said, okay, would you miss $10 a week outta your paycheck?

[00:04:52] She said, nah, not really. I said, good. Invest that. Every week invest that. And [00:05:00] when you turn my age, I was in my mid fifties, I guess at the time -you’ll be rich. And she thought that was a great idea. I saw her about five, six years later at the grocery store and we chatted for a bit and I said, have you invested, been investing that $10?

[00:05:17] And she said, no.

[00:05:19] Miriam: Oh,

[00:05:21] Charles: so, and it’s an opportunity that you have when you’re young that you don’t have when you get above 40 as much, because. Time value of money, compound interest between 18 and 40- you’re looking at doubling your, your investment three times over minimum on average. Yeah. So it grows and it grows and it compounds. Einstein said, you know, compound interest is, is the greatest force in the universe.

[00:05:51] Yeah. And it is a wonderful thing. So to young people. Work hard invest.

[00:05:58] I had lunch with Lee [00:06:00] Iococa here. A number of years ago, gentleman, that ran Chrysler, who was Ford Mustang and then Chrysler and he said, it’s, it’s really easy to get rich in this country, Charles, just work half a day, every day. It doesn’t matter whether you work the first 12 hours or the last 12 hours.

[00:06:18] yeah. Now that was semi in gest, but the idea is work hard, save and invest. And over time, you’ll be amazed at what happens.

[00:06:29] Miriam: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. And I love that you pulled out the Einstein quote because in my mind I was like, I’m pretty sure Einstein said this and I was gonna try and cobble it together, but you got it.

Inflation for Business Owners

[00:06:41] Miriam: Okay. So for our business owners out there, what kind of insight would you be giving them about inflation and what’s going on?

[00:06:50] Charles: Raise your prices. Your clients will understand your customers will understand. They’re getting it everywhere. They know it. Don’t be greedy obviously, but you’ve got [00:07:00] to cover your costs.

[00:07:01] You’ve gotta keep your profit margins up. You can’t afford to give it away. So yeah, you’re gonna have to increase the prices. You’re gonna have to increase them several times. We, we did a major price increase earlier this year. And we got one person who said really? And I said, 9% inflation. And he said, eh, okay.

[00:07:24] mm-hmm so they understand they’re living it too, just like you are. And you can’t afford to let inflation drive you out of business.

[00:07:33] My father was an independent businessman. And number of years ago, he was talking about raising his prices and he was talking about a little of this and a little that.

[00:07:42] I said, double your prices. He said, I can’t do that. I said, double your prices. And if you lose half your clients, you’re gonna make just as much money and work half as hard. Yeah. So he did. And he got more new business inquiries than he’d ever gotten in his life.

[00:07:59] Miriam: Why do you [00:08:00] think?

[00:08:01] Charles: Because he did a great job for his clients. He had provided great value. Some of his clients, he hadn’t increased their price in 30 years. Mm-hmm okay. So he was well under the market, he was cheap and once he raised his price to a more reasonable level, they looked at and they said, we’re getting a good value for our money even now.

[00:08:22] If you’re not in commodity business, then pricing is much more flexible. Our business, we, we sell based on our, our compliance expertise that our competitors don’t have. So we’re not competing with them. We’re offering a service that they don’t offer in addition to payroll. So we’re not competing with ADP or Pay Checks

[00:08:46] we’re competing tax attorneys and these kinds of people. So it’s a whole different world.

Tax Compliance

[00:08:52] Miriam: Yeah. So take a second and explain- what I had heard was just a huge amount of people being hired to create [00:09:00] compliance and that things were gonna get a lot more difficult for many more people. What is your understanding of what is happening with tax compliance and how does that impact business owners?

[00:09:13] Charles: The inflation reduction act, which is. Oxymoron. It does not reduce inflation. It increases inflation has in a number of tax increases, and in addition it add allocates another 80 billion a year to the internal revenue service.

[00:09:33] Of which at least 50 billion is supposed to go to enforcement.

[00:09:39] Which means a lot of agents and, and a lot of audits and know it’s not gonna be on billionaires and millionaires. It’s gonna be on you and me. It’s going to be on small business. Small business is frankly, under audited. The chance of an S Corp being audited at the moment are four tenths of 1% per year.

[00:09:57] Okay. So it, they [00:10:00] are under-audited, but it’s going to be a huge change in the number of IRS agents.

[00:10:07] I spent three years on the IRS advisory council, now, the IRS for the most part, they’re good people. They’re mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters. They’ve got families.

[00:10:20] They want to do their job. Yes. They’re civil servants. Yes. They get their 30 days of vacation. Yes. You can’t fire them and no, they do not have the same drive to do the job that independent business people do because it’s our, it’s our livelihood and we have to make our own, they’re just going for the next GS.

[00:10:41] And most of that’s based on seniority, but they’re not bad people for the most part. The laws are written by the Congress. So if you’re not happy with a tax law, don’t take it out on the IRS. Take it out on your Congressman.

[00:10:57] He wrote it. Or his staff did and [00:11:00] he voted for it. So the IRS is just the enforcement arm for federal tax laws that our Congress writes.

[00:11:10] But you are going to have to be far more cautious about compliance moving forward. Now it’s not gonna happen this year. They gotta find 87,000 people to hire. They have to find 87,000 people that wanna work for the IRS.

[00:11:28] And when you think about that, now it has a lot of advantage.

Finance Education

[00:11:31] Miriam: Yeah. So something that I noticed that your company does that I find as a differentiator – you provide some form of protection against that.

[00:11:40] Charles: Well, our unique selling proposition is compliance. I’m a certified public account. I’m a us tax court practitioner. And what that means is I can represent my clients in us tax court without being an attorney. I have a bar card from the us tax [00:12:00] court. I can go down to the court, stand up in front of the judge and say, I’m representing Joe blow and put on my case and my defense against the internal revenue service.

[00:12:13] I haven’t lost a case yet. I’ll lose one sooner or later. I promise you. But at the moment, my record’s perfect. I had three tax court cases on my desk until yesterday and they acquiesced in one and just said, we’re gonna, we’re just gonna give it to you.

[00:12:28] So good. I

[00:12:29] won, I won that one.

[00:12:30] That one’s my client’s happy

[00:12:32] Miriam: I think that that’s something that is very, very scary to people. You get a letter from the IRS and sometimes I’ve gotten ones that are. Talking about a small change that’s been made, but I tell you what they sit on my counter for two days until I have enough Moxi to open it.

[00:12:50] Charles: my wife and I went into business together 30 years ago. And we take, I take as a CPA, a, a form 28 48 on every [00:13:00] client that said IRS limited power of attorney. And it allows me to advocate for my clients, which is part of our compliance. So we get a copy of the certified letter. Via certified mail to our office.

[00:13:13] I’ve been a CPA for almost 50 years. I’m very, very good at this. In most cases, I know more than the IRS agent that I’m dealing with because this is an area I specialize in.

[00:13:27] Sure. And IRS agents change in various areas over the years to get more experience, they get transferred from department to department to department. So you’re unlikely to find an employment tax IRS agent with 30 years of experience, I have that I’ve studied it. I’ve studied the law.

[00:13:45] I fought these things for 30 years, so they can’t pull the wool over my eyes. They can’t intimidate me. I try to tell my clients not to talk to the IRS because [00:14:00] they’ll get upset because it’s personal. Let me talk to the IRS because it’s not personal to me. Right. Because when it gets. You get upset. ,

[00:14:10] Miriam: it’s so true. Especially talking about money, you know, all of these things are a recipe for getting in your amygdala space in your head where it’s that fight flight or freeze.

Financial Discussions for Partners

[00:14:24] Miriam: And one of the conversations I wanted to go with with you is as a financial guy, talk about the kind of conversations. Partners should be having about money, whether you have a business or not.

[00:14:38] Charles: My wife and I were in business together for, for many years before she passed, I believe there’s two things that make a marriage work, because a marriage is a partnership.

[00:14:49] And it’s communication and compromise. You have to have both.

[00:14:54] If it’s really important to her and not important to you, let her do it her way. It’s really important to you, but not [00:15:00] important to her. Do it your way. If it’s not important to either one of you just flip a coin, the only real argument is if it’s real important to both of you.

[00:15:08] So you have to compromise, but communication with your spouse, they’ve gotta know what’s going on. I get innocent spouses in here whose husbands have done stupid things on tax returns.

[00:15:21] I haven’t yet had one where it’s the wife. And I’m not trying to be sexist here. It’s just my experience.

[00:15:26] You have to know what’s going on in that tax return, because if you sign it as a spouse, you’re responsible.

[00:15:33] Yeah. If you think it’s wrong, don’t sign it. Refuse to sign it, then go see your divorce attorney, but don’t sign tax returns just cuz hubby says it’s right.

[00:15:44] Know what’s going on? Know what you, what you’re signing, know what you’re being involved in because if you sign that return and there ends up being money due years later, the IRS is not gonna go, oh, well, , that’s ok.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] No, they’re gonna say we’re gonna take it outta your paycheck. We’re gonna take your bank accounts. We’re gonna take your retirement. We’re gonna take everything except your first born.

[00:16:07]

Business Ethics

[00:16:46] Miriam: Yeah. What I hear you talking about is ethics and, paying attention to what your name and your reputation and your energy are attached to.

[00:16:57] And this holds true within companies too. I [00:17:00] would like to believe that companies are all above board, but obviously they aren’t all, or there wouldn’t be anything for the papers to write about and there’s this, that, and the other happening.

[00:17:09] And somebody knows somebody gets a gut feeling somebody, ah, looks the other way, one time.

[00:17:16] What I hear you saying is if you live long enough, that stuff comes back to bite you in the end.

[00:17:22] Charles: It does. And I see companies quite often where there’s internal fraud. Mm-hmm I have a, a local doctor who’s bookkeeper retired, and one of the other girls in the office said she wanted the job.

[00:17:36] Well, she went to jail for embezzling several hundred thousand dollars and the IRS seized his retirement accounts and bank accounts and everything else. So, and that’s not unusual. I see that several times a year, internal fraud.

[00:17:52] So if you own a company, you need to be extraordinarily careful about who you trust with anything.

[00:17:58] It’s one of the reasons to that [00:18:00] why I exist is to outsource payroll. Sure. So you don’t have to worry about. You approve it. And I process it – we get this all the time where that person’s supposed to make the tax deposits doesn’t make them covers it up for years.

[00:18:13] Finally gets caught. Well that money’s long gone. They’ve spent it. So yeah, you can put ’em in jail, but that doesn’t alleviate you from having to pay the IRS for that money that was stolen.

[00:18:25] The IRS doesn’t care. Somebody stole it from you. You still have to pay them. Yeah, they, they have no, they have no sympathy for that.

Leadership in Business

[00:18:36] Miriam: You’re someone who’s been in business for over five decades. Talk to me about beliefs or actions that are important to you as a leader, you lead your company. Let’s talk about leadership for a little bit.

[00:18:52] Charles: I’m also a Marine.

[00:18:54] Marine veteran, combat veteran, and in the Marine Corps, one of the ways to [00:19:00] talk about leadership is mission, men, self. You accomplish the mission at whatever the cost. You accomplish, the mission. Then you take care of your men. Then you take care of yourself.

[00:19:18] I remember this being brought back very specifically to me, I was in, in Girlilla warfare school, in Northern Okinawa, and we’d been out in the field for about a week. It was a two week course and we hadn’t had a hot meal living off of C rats and you know, hadn’t had a shower.

[00:19:33] And finally we got brought out a hot meal and the Lieutenant who was our platoon commander made sure every one of us got fed before he got a plate of hot food. Yeah. So he’d been in the field with us. Nobody could have stopped him if he’d gone first, but he wouldn’t .No. That’s leadership.

[00:19:58] So my job is [00:20:00] to, and, and now is to make sure that my clients business gets done. Payrolls, get processed perfectly on time.

[00:20:08] Every time. Then it’s to take care of my employees. My job as CEO is to make them happy, make their job easy.

[00:20:19] The easier it is, the more efficient they are happier my clients are the more money we make. Then I can take care of myself.

[00:20:29] Miriam: Simon Sinek wrote a book called Leaders Eat Last, and I love that you even gave that example and he must have hung out with some military folks to get that. He’s a very humble man and I love his business books and his insights are Hey, park, your ego at the door and serve your fellow man, which I think is what I hear you saying,

Enjoy Life

[00:20:49] Miriam: yeah. So tell me at this stage, in your life, what concept or idea are you currently chewing on

[00:20:58] Charles: I enjoy life. I, [00:21:00] I enjoy what I do. I enjoy the people around me

[00:21:03] Being a widower. I, yeah, the house gets lonely sometimes at night, but I I’m a lifelong learner, so I continue to learn, continued read. I don’t watch TV. I read. But at this point in my life, I want to enjoy my life. Enjoy the people I’m with. I’m not near as confrontational as I was when I was 20.

[00:21:24] But you know, coming outta the Marine Corps, you, you tend to be confrontational.

[00:21:29] Miriam: There’s a little bit of that.

[00:21:31] Charles: The best, the best thing that ever happened to me was my wife. She, she moderated me a great deal and taught me a lot. She was a wonderful people person and taught me a really much better way to handle and understand people in civilian life mm-hmm it was the best decision I ever made in my life was marry Ruth.

[00:21:51] Miriam: Yeah. And look at just the ripples that came off of that decision. I, I think that, you know, that’s a good lesson to all of us [00:22:00] that the decisions we make have far reaching consequences.

[00:22:03] So make, make good ones,

Decisions Have Consequences

[00:22:05] Charles: you know, absolutely decisions have consequences.

[00:22:09] If you made bad decisions in college, they’ll haunt you all your life. I have some decisions I’ve made in my life that I. I regret not investing more when I was younger, frankly. , I’d be a lot working today. Yeah. But then I have decisions I made like asking Ruth to marry me that I am forever ecstatic about having made that decision and gotten a yes from her.

[00:22:34] Yeah. How long were you guys married? We were married for 45 years before she pass. Wow. Wow. That is a testimony to your ability to listen and to compromise and to work with her. So that’s good. Well, yeah, I’m not sure. She’d agree all the time, but yes. . Oh my goodness, Charles, since you’re a reader, what’s a good book.

[00:22:57] You’ve read recently or a book you would [00:23:00] recommend besides your own. We’ll have, we’ll have in the show notes, your own books, but

Recommended Books

[00:23:04] Charles: one of the books I’m rereading that I would recommend to. It is, it is a new translation of the meditations of Marcus aureus. Mm. It is called the emperor’s handbook.

[00:23:17] I mean, obviously the, the meditations go back 2000 years. Sure. If you watched. So gladiator, I think it was mm-hmm with Crow. Mm-hmm that movie, the first emperor that died was Marcus a this sure. From that time period.

[00:23:33] Now for your people who are in business. I recommend Michael Gerber’s The E-Myth Revisited.

[00:23:40] Miriam: Ah, I just read that. Yes. It teaches you how to work on your business. Not in your business,

[00:23:46] not in your business.

[00:23:47] Charles: I buy it by the dozen, literally a dozen a time and give it out to clients. Yeah, it is required reading for every new employee in my company.

[00:23:59] Miriam: Tell, [00:24:00] explain to me why you’re giving it to your employees.

[00:24:02] Charles: If you’ll read that and reread it. I reread it every few years. It comes down to policies and procedures. Yes. Okay. Who makes the recommendations to change those? the CEO doesn’t, it’s the people who are doing the work on a daily basis. Mm-hmm , they’re the ones that see the problems.

[00:24:22] Those are the people that need to understand why they need to bring it up, why they need to champion changes and why following policy and procedure, which is an everchanging volume, is so important.

[00:24:37] So they’re the ones that have to say, this is an exception. We need to decide how to handle it. So they need to be intimately involved in the business and in the policies and procedures and in the changes in those manuals. So, yes, I want them to be aware of the, what, why and how, of what we’re doing, not just their [00:25:00] job.

[00:25:01] I can’t know everything. I’m not the smartest man in the room.

[00:25:06] My job is to hire the smartest person in the room and listen to the people who work for. me Because they know what’s going on far better than I do. If they’re yes. People, I’m not going to get real input. I’m not going to get real change. I’m not gonna get told what the problems are. Right. Okay. And I have to know, or I can’t fix the things that I can fix as a CEO if I don’t know they’re broken, I don’t know to fix them.

[00:25:36] Miriam:

A Force for Good

[00:25:36] Miriam: How do you see yourself as working for a force for good in our world?

[00:25:43] Charles: Well, you know, I think we, I think as a company, we do a great job and provide a substantial service to our clients and to make their life easier.

[00:25:54] I also employ a number of people and provide them with a way to have a [00:26:00] family, take care of their families, grow, prosper, save for retirement. We’ve got a 401k, we’ve got other things.

[00:26:08] I personally have set up a scholarship. We mentor at one of the high schools here in Dallas, and we have scholarships and I’ve set up a, a special Memorial scholarship in my wife’s name, and it will be a a legacy in her name for some extended period of time.

[00:26:29] Miriam: So, you know lots of ways you’ve given it a lot of thought and you are trying to impact your world in a multitude of ways, which is one of the reasons I like to interview people on this show who are trying to do good.

[00:26:44] I I’m like, oh my gosh, don’t make a bunch of money and then be a jerk.

[00:26:49] Make a bunch of money and then go do something for your fellow man or your planet.

[00:26:55] You cannot take it with you.

[00:26:58] Charles: You cannot. [00:27:00] Okay.

[00:27:01] And when you’re gone, you’re going to be quickly forgotten as we all are,

[00:27:07] so it’s what you do while you’re alive and your philosophy and dealing with nature and your fellow man- those are the important things.

[00:27:19] You know many of my heroes are, are gone. Yeah. And are seldom are remembered. So. Life goes on.

[00:27:27] You have to live with it.

[00:27:29] Miriam: So do good while you’re still alive and kicking. You can bless the people around you-

[00:27:34] Charles: -very much so. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:36] Well, thank you so much for spending time here. Why don’t you tell my audience just how they can reach you or find you? Sure. Get payroll.com.

[00:27:47] My email is CJR@ get payroll.com. And if they’ve got a payroll question or a payroll tax problem that they really gotta talk about [00:28:00] 9 7 2 3 5 3 0 0 0 0. And ask for Charles.

[00:28:07] Miriam: Wow. That was brave. Giving your phone number is always brave. well, Charles, I I mentioned before we started that we wanted to gift a charity donation in your name and you chose mercy ships.

[00:28:21] That is a charity that gives free surgeries to people in need off the coast of Africa. And so we’ll be sending that off today in your name, or if you’d like, we’ll put it in your wife’s name and thank you for your service and thank you for your time.

[00:28:38] Charles: My pleasure, Miriam.

[00:28:40] [00:29:00]

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Self-sabotage and your intuition with Angella Johnson

Self-sabotage and your intuition.

[00:00:00] Miriam: Angela. It’s fun to see you again. I’m really happy for this conversation.

[00:00:04] Angella: I’m so happy to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this, right.

[00:00:07] Miriam: Me too. All right. Well, why don’t we start by, I mean, I know in the intro, I kind of told a little bit about what you do. But I would love to have you explain your philosophy of business and how you’ve seen it change over the course of the last little bit.

[00:00:22] And I also want you to realize that my listeners are split- half of them are business owners and the other half are people who wanna improve their life. So we’re gonna bounce back and forth between the topic of business and the topic of self development.

[00:00:36] Angella: Perfect.

Philosophy of Business

[00:00:36] Angella: Well, my philosophy, a couple philosophies is one is you have to fit your business into your life, not the other way around. For a lot of years, I had that backwards. And so very much appreciating the balance of, we have to talk about life.

In addition to talking about business. The other piece is I really, you know, fundamentally believe that if we, and when we change the way we [00:01:00] do business, we change the world that we co-create together.

[00:01:04] And, and so my, my specialty is marketing and messaging. I work with a lot of service- based entrepreneurs. So people like me, I work from home. I have a part-time assistant. I don’t, you know, I’m not manufacturing something. I’m not managing a huge team.

How it all began

[00:01:16] And so I provide a service and you know, when I started this venture back in late 2008, I was amazed that a regular person like me could essentially write their own paycheck. On one hand, that can be really exciting. On the other hand, it’s terrifying because there’s nobody giving you a paycheck or your 401k match or paid sick time. It is really up to you.

[00:01:42] I’ve never quite fit into traditional systems, or if you do these things, then this is a happy life. And so it definitely fit. Fit for my, my life path.

[00:01:52] Miriam: Yeah. That makes sense to me. So many of the entrepreneurs I’ve talked with said,” I made a terrible employee. I hated people telling me what [00:02:00] to do.” So many of us are people who like to chart our own course, and there is nothing wrong with being a team player there’s a space for all of us. Right. I have done both, but I, I guess I’m just saying, I hear what you’re saying. yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:02:16] Angella: As an example, my husband is very much satisfied and happy with his nine-five and his 401k matching. And he’s very content with that, like, it actually helps ’em feel safe in the world by doing that.

[00:02:30] I don’t have that experience. I feel stifled-I feel like I can’t like I’m being suffocated. What I’m here to do on the planet, I can’t do within the confines of that particular job. Now, that’s not to say that’s everybody, because it does take all kinds to make the world go round. So I totally hear what you’re saying.

Marketing Shift

[00:02:50] Miriam: Yeah, that’s right. Talk to me about how you’ve seen your ideas of marketing shift through, you know, and messaging. Yeah. Through the tenure of what the last [00:03:00] 10 years or so.

[00:03:01] Angella: you know, so when I started my business, I, I really, and I say that , I got sucked into a world of high ticket coaching. I knew about people like Tony Robbins or Jack Canfield, , these big names and, and books and big stages. I thought, oh, that’s for them. That’s not for people like, like myself.

[00:03:17] I got sucked into this world of online business and coaching.

[00:03:22] And, and it worked- ish until it really did not work. It’s, you know, build your business to six figures and then to seven figures. And you just, you do what you’re told to do.

[00:03:33] You buy into all the formulas, you do them just right. And then you will have success. I thought, okay, well, this can’t be that hard. Can it , you know? So I became this poster child for six- figure- business in less than a year. And I was climbing this ladder and it felt very similar to when I was climbing the corporate ladder and in the process, I was losing myself. In the process, I would have these experiences and I didn’t have the language then to know what was [00:04:00] happening, but I was definitely being triggered.

Don’t Lose Yourself in the Process

[00:04:02] Angella: I was in abusive relationships with coaches. I would say, I thought that strategy or this advice would tell me just doesn’t quite feel right. Like it feels kind of slimy and I would often be met with a response of that’s just your fear talking. Like, do you really want fear to make another decision for you?

[00:04:23] And the, the challenge with phrases like that is one you’re paying this person a lot of money. Mm-hmm, two, there’s a power dynamic that you don’t wanna be unreasonable or difficult. Well, they’re clearly they clearly know more than I do because they’re making the seven figures and I’m not.

[00:04:40] So maybe I just put my ego to the side and, and just do what they’re telling me to do. But the thing that was missing was, again, this language and awareness of why doesn’t this feel right. Why, what what’s really happening if it wasn’t my fear? Cuz it is, it is scary to put yourself out there, be visible and ask people for money.[00:05:00]

[00:05:00] you know, that’s not necessarily a skill I was born with. But what was really happening is I felt like my soul and my intuition were screaming at me saying, there’s another way. You don’t have to, for example, buy into people’s pain points and push on those pain points. You don’t have to. If you’re selling a high ticket service, you know, have a 30 minute conversation.

Question the Advice

[00:05:20] The advice was always, you don’t hang up the phone until you have the person’s credit card number. And on one hand, I can, I can see that. But on the other hand, I thought I just, is this really what we’re doing? When I said at the very beginning of like how we change, if we change the way we do business, we change this world that we’re living in.

[00:05:40] And this is what I mean is all of those strategies I was being taught was, was really rooted in energy of scarcity, of lack, of greed, of manipulation, of powering over somebody. Rather than co-creating with someone or empowering someone to, to make the best [00:06:00] decision for them. Versus the decision that helped me meet, you know, make my income goal for the month.

[00:06:05] So all of these different strategies I was learning and in the meantime, I was growing my business, doing all the things, but behind the scenes, my marriage was falling apart. My health was not great. Money was going out faster than it was coming in. So even though I was making like almost multiple six figures, so translation almost $200,000 in revenue. I had zero savings I was just paying coaches and for events and all the things.

But What About Our Nervous Systems?

[00:06:31] But no one was having conversations around money management. No one was having conversations around my nervous system, capacity, sustainability, or even are you, are you having joy? like, are you enjoying any of this or are you just climbing on this perpetual ladder that never ends for what? You know? So that was my, my journey.

[00:06:55] And so in 2017, I mean, it was actually before that it [00:07:00] was about 2014. I burned it all down and I just said, I, I physically could not do it another day, spiritually, mentally, physically, like I was completely depleted.

[00:07:11] And I thought if I can grow a business, doing all these things that are exhausting, that don’t feel right to me. What if I did it with my intuition in the, for. What if I did it with a softness and a sustainability and in a more soulful way, like, I’m just, I’m going to bet on myself here. And I did that. And so I rebuilt my business. I got back to the, you know, this coveted six figures, which really we can have a whole other conversation around.

[00:07:40] That means nothing , you know? But I, I had, I found myself again. You know, and I did it in a way that I could sleep at night. I knew that I was treating people well. I was creating relationships with people instead of just transactions. Yeah. And that [00:08:00] was huge shift.

Intuition in Business

[00:08:02] Miriam: So I think that a lot of people don’t actually know what intuition or intuitive means sometimes that word is thrown about, and it means different things to different people.

[00:08:14] Mm-hmm so share for a second, what that means to you and how it played out in your business and translate it for people who don’t own businesses.

[00:08:24] Angella: Yeah. So I, I have a fundamental belief that everyone has. A gut instinct. Like you can tell when something is just off, you know, sometimes people have just this instant, knowing some people have a literal, like gut, like reaction.

[00:08:40] Like they feel it in their gut either kind of goes clunk or it’s like, okay, that feels good. And a lot of times people, you know, use intuition of that only happens in a religious context. And I believe that everyone has intuition. And so it’s this knowing of what is your life path?

[00:08:57] But the challenge with trusting our [00:09:00] intuition is when we’re, it starts from when we’re very young, someone always knows best mm-hmm and rightfully so, like our parents know best when we’re two years old.

Be Curious 

[00:09:09] Well, some parents know best, you know? But it starts in school, you know, politicians, healthcare, like all of these experts know more than you do, which is not really the, the case, but our intuition gets dampened and it gets just, you know, diluted. We just start squashing it down more and more and more.

[00:09:32] And when we actually allow ourselves to be in the question to be curious about things, to consider possibilities, to actually know what’s best for us. I really believe that we, we find our life path. You know, we make decisions based on what is really right for us rather than what we should be doing according to society. So that’s what I mean by intuition.

[00:09:56] And, you know, I always think. But if you have a best friend or, [00:10:00] you know, parents with their children, their relationship, like those moments, when you just go, I need to check in with that person. I wonder how my child’s doing. Yeah. That’s your intuition. And when we use that in our business, then we start making decisions based on what’s aligned and what feels right for us rather than, oh, well, here’s the formula- fit your self into the formula.

[00:10:22] So things like what should I price my program at? Well, it should be this because everyone ends, you know, it’s $97 cuz everybody ends in a seven, you know, like that’s this trend? It’s like, well, what if like what feels right to me? And it’s not just blindly picking a number. Like you have to make sure your costs are covered, like use logic, with your intuition, but that’s just, that’s just one example.

What Is My Soul Here To Do?

[00:10:46] And so really being led by what I use the word soul, like what my soul is here to do, rather than fitting myself into someone else’s formula, because they happen to, you know, have [00:11:00] made seven figures, teaching that formula.

[00:11:02] Miriam: Sure. So let me ask a clarifying question because I understand both sides of what you’re talking about.

[00:11:09] As a therapist and a coach, I understand that space of “face your fear.” And I also understand that space of power. And I also understand that space that sometimes your gut, because of trauma or whatever is telling you to back up when you need to go forward. Yes. And sometimes your gut is saying, you need to go forward and you need to listen to it.

[00:11:32] Mm-hmm and that’s a very tricky line for people to figure out. And I find often there are people who haven’t done the work, who I guess maybe listen to that reactive voice and they actually make decisions that are bad for them, whether that is purchasing the $10,000 course or whether that is running away from the potential date that they could have gone on that might have changed their life.

[00:11:58] Right. And then you have [00:12:00] other people who are so in tune with their internal sense of whatever, right and wrong that the hair on the back of their neck goes up. And you find out later that that person they were talking to was a child molester and they picked it up, you know, mm-hmm, like some people are in tune with that space that you need to listen to.

Connect to the True Intuition

[00:12:21] Miriam: Yeah. And there is that other space that you need to challenge. Yes. And I guess as someone who has been on both sides of that fence, and you work with people. So I would like to know how you help people connect to that true intuition, how you helped you connect to that true intuition versus the space that needs to be challenged.

[00:12:46] Angella: I am so glad you asked this question because it’s a, it’s one of the top questions I get is how do you tell is this your intuition or is this a trauma response? Right? You know, that trauma response can kick on that because your nervous system, its job is to keep you safe. And so [00:13:00] there’s this familiarity of, oh, okay.

[00:13:02] I don’t have to put myself out there. I, I can stay safe and my little cocoon and this feels safe. Meanwhile, there’s this disconnect of, “but if I just stay here. How am I ever going to let people know what my business is about?” You know? And so there’s not an easy answer and there’s a frustrating, frustrating answer, which is it takes practice.

[00:13:24] Yeah. You know, like, so when I really get quiet and I know how, for me, my intuition is usually quite immediate, but where I get myself into trouble is I start talking myself in and out of things, I start justifying things. I start loosening my boundaries with things. I ignore that in that immediate, like, I don’t know if this is a good idea.

[00:13:44] No, it’ll be fine. Just, just, you know, just trust, just push through it. And so. Personally how my intuition works.

Practice Trying to Understand Your Intuition

[00:13:51] I’ll use my husband as an example. He usually needs about 24 hours. And so he has to ride this kind of emotional wave of like, yeah, this is a great idea. No, this is a horrible [00:14:00] idea.

[00:14:00] And then usually in about a day after he sleeps on it, he gets to this place where it’s a more of a logical, like, this is what makes sense for me.

[00:14:09] When you start experimenting with, is this my intuition or is this a mechanism that is keeping me “safe”, but it’s keeping me separate from the very thing that I desire. So, so it’s just practice.

[00:14:21] But the other thing that I’ll say is to ask ourselves more questions and also have someone in our life that can ask us questions.

[00:14:31] Does this feel aligned for you if you were to engage in whatever the marketing strategy is, is there an adjustment that would feel more aligned for you that would utilize your strengths better?

[00:14:42] Mm-hmm . And so I find that curiosity and asking ourselves questions, but then really being honest with ourselves -“Is this something holding me back or is this really my true wisest self saying, yes, this is the next step forward.” Yeah. And it can get really [00:15:00] confusing.

[00:15:00] There are people that I go to therapist, coaches, friends, –

[00:15:04] Let me just share, you know, what I’m thinking, and can you reflect things back? Or can you ask me questions or can you reflect things back to me so I can hear it and, and then know, okay. Here’s my next step.

Miriam’s Wise Friend

[00:15:17] Miriam: Yeah. I think having a wise friend is super useful. I have a friend in my own life where I can share what I’m thinking or feeling about my next step.

[00:15:29] And she’ll ask some insightful questions and then she might say something like, ” this isn’t the Miriam I know talking. Mm-hmm. This feels like a lesser version of you. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes that really is surprising to me because in that moment I felt like I was, you know, yea, this is just how I feel or whatever.

[00:15:49] But if I can step back and look at myself from maybe above or a distance or whatever I can say,” yeah, that was me playing small.” Or [00:16:00] sometimes she’ll say,” are you sure that’s where you wanna go?” Mm-hmm. “Is this going to ultimately lead to what you want?” And just that question pauses me long enough to give me the ability to look at, you know, the Miriam of the past, the Miriam of now and the Miriam of the future.

[00:16:19] And I really like your word aligned. I, I want to see growth, but it has to be along a consistent trajectory. Yeah. And when you start doing things that are opposite of your internal sense of ethics- It never goes well, mm-hmm, , you know, I like that word aligned.

[00:16:39] You, you coach people in marketing, is that correct? Right, right.

Coaching Business Owners

[00:16:43] Angella: So I, I do a lot of teaching and I do coaching, so I do both. Okay. Okay.

[00:16:48] Miriam: How do you help someone when you see them perhaps playing small

[00:16:53] Angella:  there’s how I used to help people- I think it’s important to actually talk [00:17:00] about that and how I help people now is actually different.

[00:17:02]  how I used to help people is I would do a lot of the, the carrying of the energy. Like here’s the strategy, and I know you can do it. I would be the cheerleader, which it’s like, okay. On one hand, that sounds really great. Right? Yeah. But what I wasn’t asking, because I didn’t have this knowledge for myself.

[00:17:18] I wasn’t asking, like, do you actually feel safe to have this thing that you say you want. Mm, like, are you going to implode this later because it’s such a shock for your nervous system in the way that things have always been, you know?

What Are the Patterns?

And so, especially when I see similar patterns, like, if a person gets super close to launching a new program or opening the doors to a retreat or an event that they’re selling and, and they’re, you know, they’re sabotaging themselves or procrastinating or these different things that have these very, you know, sexy labels, but what’s underneath that is, –there’s a part of them that’s actually not too sure about this.

What are they going to do when they [00:18:00] have a full program? And now. They might feel responsible for leading all these people in this program. And that responsibility feels too scary. Mm-hmm .

[00:18:09] And so if someone’s not doing something like in their marketing or whatever, the, the checklist is, it’s, let’s ask some questions to find out what’s really going on.

[00:18:19] And what I, what I tell people is like, you cannot override your intuition with all the strategies, just like you cannot override strategies with intuition. Like there’s a blend here.

Making Choices That Are Congruent

[00:18:28] And when I say intuition is trusting yourself, Making the choices that are congruent and aligned for you.

[00:18:36] And sometimes I find that just giving things a little more space, like, you know, in, in running a business and in life in general, we’re in this hurry all the time.

[00:18:48] Yeah, for what like, where’s this imaginary finish line, you know? And, and so there’s this push and this urgency, and it’s like, what if we just slowed things down, gave yourself some more spaciousness [00:19:00] and really did it in a way that your brain can get on board, your nervous system can get on board and the support that you require can actually show up to support you.

[00:19:11] So I hope I answered your question. I went off in a couple different places.

[00:19:14] Miriam: No, you’re you’re okay. When you were talking, I had this image of like a cartoon where the cartoon is zipping in one direction, but part of it is like still back here. And so there’s this blur as the front part of him here and the back part is still there.

[00:19:34] And then it kind of snaps where the back part catches up to the front part. Mm-hmm

[00:19:39] I see people do that where a piece of them is they’re go getters and they’re whatever, and they’re just, they’re hard driving and they are gonna accomplish X.

[00:19:48] And a lot of times there are other pieces of them that are still left back behind them and it doesn’t necessarily go well.

Giving Space

[00:19:57] Miriam: So when you are talking about [00:20:00] giving space, what does that look like to the average person?

[00:20:04] Angella: Yeah, so. So I’ll use a business example and then I’ll use a life example. So in business, you know, there’s this urgency of, and, and it makes sense because we have to make money to pay our expenses. And it’s not like, well, I’m just gonna go on sabbatical every time I feel like I need to rest.

[00:20:21] Like, that would be great, but most people don’t have that kind of privilege to be able to do that. Right. And so it looks like instead of launching a program in a week, you give yourself 30 days and you have a longer period of time for marketing. And you don’t work on the weekends. Like you actually build rest time into your marketing strategy and, and that might look like also, maybe you hire some pieces out, maybe you, you know, do a trade with a friend or a colleague.

[00:20:50] Like there’s so many ways that if budget is an issue that you can get support but you have to be willing to receive support. So just giving yourself more time to actually you know, [00:21:00] launch or sell the thing that you’re selling now, that’s also a very specific example to more service based businesses.

[00:21:06] I mean, for manufacturing or if you’re selling, you know, widgets online, like I can’t totally answer that cuz that’s not the world I live in mm-hmm.

People Are Tired

[00:21:13] But another example of just giving yourself space and I, I think that this is a common theme, you know, at the end of this pandemic and everything that we’ve experienced collectively in the last couple of years, people are tired.

[00:21:27] Our nervous systems are spent. Our mental capacity, we’re just done. Yeah. And to give ourselves permission to not do all the things,

[00:21:37] and I also, I wanna acknowledge that, that also requires a lot of privilege. Like there’s some people who they don’t have time to rest because if they don’t work, then their family doesn’t eat.

[00:21:47] Yeah. Or they can’t pay rent. And so, so there’s a lot of privilege in that, what I just shared. And so. I always say, start where you are with what you have. Like, if it’s just taking a few minutes [00:22:00] to breathe, if it’s asking a, you know, a partner or spouse, a friend, Hey, I could really use some help with this because there’s this, this like this badge of honor that I feel like we wear of, like, I can do it all.

[00:22:13] And when told this, you can have it all. And I’m like, I don’t think we can. I don’t, you know, at least not at the same time, like, there are different seasons in life of that go- getter.

[00:22:24] And sometimes it’s just going to maintain what I have and I’m not going to go after all the things right now. Like, I’m just gonna enjoy simplicity.

Humans vs Machines

[00:22:34] Miriam: Yeah. I hear you using a lot of language that makes me think you’re talking about being human , you know, and just giving yourself the privilege to be a human being and not a machine. Yes. Yes. Cause we’re not at robots. Right.

[00:22:51] Angella: And I, I find that there’s this phrase that happens a lot in the personal development circles and spiritual circles of like we’re at.

[00:22:58] An infinite being or a divine [00:23:00] being in a human body or some version of that. And so when we have these very human experiences, then it’s like this moral failing almost of like, oh, I should have done better. I should have, you know, whatever. And it’s like, that’s part of what being a human is- is sometimes being human is really hard.

[00:23:22] There’s grief and there’s loss and there’s diagnosis and there’s health issues and there’s stress and there’s money challenges and all the things. And, and that’s part of human experience. Mm-hmm so I think it’s really important to, to find those pockets of joy.

[00:23:40] If I would look at the world and be quite overwhelmed with all of the problems and wonder why are we not doing. More to help people have food or the animals or the earth. Like those are some of my earliest memories. [00:24:00] And so you’re listening to this and you can relate with being a very like deeply feeling, highly sensitive person.

[00:24:06] I think, especially for us, we have to find those simple moments of joy because that’s what makes it worthwhile. Like that’s how we get through those moments where it just feels like too much. Yeah.

The Perspective of Joy

[00:24:21] Miriam: That is the point, not the six figures or the seven figures or the, whatever those things are, perhaps access points to the point.

[00:24:30] But the real point is joy

[00:24:32] mm-hmm and you actually can have joy, whether you have a job or not, it’s a matter of perspective. It’s a matter of how you look at things and it’s a matter of trusting that the universe is good and kind, and has good things for you. Mm-hmm mm-hmm you know,

[00:24:50]

[00:24:50] [00:25:00]

Beliefs of a Leader

[00:25:28] Miriam: so talk to me a little bit about your beliefs or actions regarding you as a leader.

[00:25:35] Angella: I started, you know, poking holes in these theories of if all the formulas worked then everyone should be making more money. They should be happier. They should be healthy. They should like, if the formulas worked, then why aren’t, why aren’t they working for more people?

[00:25:51] And so I started poking holes in the, in those theories and, and they got a lot of kickback, especially from the mentors that I paid a lot of money [00:26:00] to.

[00:26:00] They did not like that. I was raising some flags of like, I don’t think this is actually the way. This is like, something’s wrong here. Something is off here.

[00:26:10] And lo and behold, few years later, more and more people are talking about manipulative marketing practices.

[00:26:16] I think we are all leaders. I get this really like high pressured expectation of, to be a quote leader means I have to have a certain number of followers.

[00:26:28] My email list has to have this. I have to have this much money in the bank. I have to have this many, you know, many speaking gigs a year, whatever the things are, which that’s not, –

[00:26:38] that’s actually. Popularity. And that’s Mar like you have a marketing team making all that stuff happen. Right. And we see this, we see people who, you know, have the books and the stages, and, and they’re not necessarily saying anything that original.

[00:26:51] Right. And, and I don’t say that as a dig, it’s just a, a fact. Right.

It’s Not About How Many Followers You Have

[00:26:55] And, and then I see people who don’t have the followers and don’t have the big name and [00:27:00] the book deals. And they’re saying, and having conversations that need to be had, and saying brilliant things that are much more original.

[00:27:08] And so I say being a leader is first leading yourself, like doing the work necessary so that you are honest with what you desire and you build that capacity to actually create that without burning out mm-hmm and, you know, we can lead our families.

[00:27:28] We can lead our communities. We. Lead a child, but I also think that important and important distinction is sometimes leadership is viewed as this powering over people. And I, I think we see this antiquated old school form of leadership that way, when, what I, the leadership that I love is co-creating with people and letting every single person shine, not even letting creating the [00:28:00] space.

[00:28:00] Intentionally for every single person to shine and show up with their gifts and strengths with their unique ideas

[00:28:07] and this collaborating to create something far greater than if we were just trying to carry it all ourselves and quote, lead in an old traditional sense. .

[00:28:17] Miriam: Yeah, I think one thing that is difficult, both in business and in leadership circles is that there is a notion that to join in where other people are doing well and support their work is somehow less valuable than creating your own thing.

Planting Trees-One at a Time

[00:28:33] And I was thinking about a gentleman whose name, unfortunately, I don’t remember. In the heart of Africa 40 years ago just started changing the way he planted trees he lived on the edge of a desert and he just wanted to see if he could take the desert back. And so. He just planted trees after tree, after tree, after tree.

[00:28:53] And he created these Wells and he, he just did it differently than everybody else. And he didn’t trumpet about it. He just did it. [00:29:00] And I think a lot of people made fun of him at first. And then they noticed his trees were living and nobody else’s were, and he created this micro climate within this area.

[00:29:10] He created a whole forest. By being diligent to what he knew was true. And he just did it and did it and did it. And now 40 years later, people are coming and saying, show me how you did this. Yeah. So at some level he, he lived his life. He lived his truth. He did good in the world and he was steadfast and he didn’t necessarily need to multiply himself a hundred X.

[00:29:34] He just did. And now he is being multiplied a hundred X

Try it For Yourself

[00:29:38] Angella: mm-hmm mm-hmm . I know the story you’re talking about. I don’t remember the person’s name, but like, that’s a beautiful example of leadership and, and there’s a thought there of, of curiosity. And I’m just gonna try this out. Huh? I wonder what’s going to happen.

[00:29:53] Yeah. And, and doing it for yourself, first, which sounds opposite. If we’re here to, you know, [00:30:00] co-create and help people, but if it’s all about service and we pay the price with our own energy, our own, you know, life force, our family or health, then that’s actually not of service. We’re giving from a, a depleted place it’s like, fill yourself.

[00:30:15] First, fill your cup first and do it for yourself.

[00:30:18] Like I, I think about, you know, the messages that I shared it’s it’s I needed to hear the things I was saying, and I wasn’t hearing it anywhere else. Yeah. And, and there’s that moment of like, if it helps one other person great, but it helps me be a better person and trust the universe and trust myself and, and have joy, then that’s worth it too.

[00:30:40] Cuz now I can contribute in things that matter globally,

Putting on Your Own Mask

[00:30:44] Miriam: right now you’re putting on your own mask before you’re helping the people around you. Yeah. And you know, that is, I think absolutely what we need to be doing, working on it’s this interesting duality of taking [00:31:00] enough time to do the self care that allows you to multiply yourself and do the others’ care.

[00:31:06] Mm-hmm and anybody who gets it gets it really like a hundred percent and people who are confused by that idea, they haven’t experienced taking care of themselves yet because when you take care of yourself at a deep soul level, you have more joy and more energy and usually more money and more resources to help other people.

[00:31:31] Angella: Well, and I think about caregivers or activists, you know, people are burning out at alarming rates. Yeah. And on one hand, I get it because especially, you know, if it’s this activism and whatever the cause is, it’s like we have to do something about this.

Like, I don’t want this to take lifetimes for this to change. And there’s some things that it may take lifetimes.

[00:31:50] And that’s hard when you’re not seeing the impact with all of this work, you know, that’s happening. [00:32:00]

We Want Sustainable Change

[00:32:00] Being depleted and burnt out- we want sustainable change. We want sustainable care. And that means building in rest and building in. And again, I know that some can sometimes feel impossible when the demands of life are a mile long and we’re just keeping our, you know, afloat.

[00:32:19] But recognize that if we keep going at this level, whatever that level is like, can I do this in 10 years? Mm-hmm can I do this in a year? Like mm-hmm or am I going to be so resentful of this very thing that right now I’m passionate about, but I gave everything for it and I lost myself in the process.

[00:32:39] Miriam: I love you saying, can I do this in 10 years? Can I do this in a year? Are you living in such a way that you could and would want to, or are you burning more of the candle than is being poured back in?

[00:32:53] I also wanna just pick up on your comments- this cause may not be solved in my lifetime.

[00:32:59] And [00:33:00] actually probably most certainly won’t be, which is, disheartening at so many levels.

[00:33:06] At our nursery, trees are half off right now. And unfortunately we lost quite a few trees to a beetle and these trees were incredible. Like they were, I’m gonna go with 60 feet high.

[00:33:19] And I know they were 60 years old and so we lost five trees and we’re in the process of buying new trees to replace them

Planting Trees

[00:33:27] and we planted one last night and one the night before, and my son was asking me, you know, what are these gonna grow up to be? And how big and whatever. And I, I said, I don’t know, I will.

[00:33:38] I won. In my lifetime, it won’t happen.

[00:33:42] You know, we planted an Oak in one place and a ginko in another and I’m not gonna see them in my lifetime.

[00:33:49] They’re gonna grow somewhat, but they’re, I’m never gonna see them to maturity. And that is a mind blowing concept.

[00:33:57] And as we work toward these things that we’re [00:34:00] trying to change, You know, the building of a business, I think can happen within a lifetime, the changing of people’s ideas. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes that happens in a lifetime.

[00:34:13] How about the changing of our own ideas? Yeah. For how many decades did we believe? One thing and then circumstances in our life. Moved us a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. And we have this new space in us that says, “I wonder. I wonder about this or that,” .

Find Your End Game

[00:34:30] Angella: Well, and that is a mind blowing possibility to even like wrap your head around. I mean, someone asked me the other day was actually I’m working with the new financial planner and she said, well, what’s your, what’s your end game for your business?

[00:34:43] What’s the exit strategy and said, I have no idea. Like, you know, because tradition says, oh, you should sell it and you’re gonna do this thing. Or you need to do the train, the trainer model and train people in your methodology. And he. I don’t know, you know?

[00:34:58] And so there feels like this pressure [00:35:00] sometimes of what’s the legacy mm-hmm , this reminds me of when my, my father-in-law died, he died in May of 2020.

[00:35:08] And one of the, the last things he said to my husband was, and he’s a writer both my husband and my father-in-law.

[00:35:17] “So make sure my books get published because that’s my legacy.”

[00:35:20] And, and I thought, and when I heard that, I thought, why does this feel weird to me? Like what, what is this? And, and so I had this beautiful opportunity to have this conversation with this amazing man.

Your Legacy

[00:35:33] And I said, “Dad, your legacy’s not the books. It’s how you loved people. It’s how you loved people. Like you changed people. By seeing them, by honoring them, by just loving them.”

[00:35:48] He was a school teacher for years and he would still have students, you know, 30, 40 years later call him and say, Hey, here’s what I’m up to now.

[00:35:56] And I’m thinking what, like that is a [00:36:00] legacy of you genuinely loved people.

[00:36:04] And, and so I, I think about this pressure I put on myself, that I see my clients put on themselves, family members, friends, like I have to do these things in order to create a legacy or create a change.

[00:36:18] And while those things can be beautiful and absolutely life -changing you know, going back to what you shared of like, how do I treat an individual?

[00:36:27] And it just an, an everyday basis that no one is, is observing. Just me and this person. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:35] Like if I have the opportunity to leave someone better, am I doing that? You know? And like, what if, what if it could be that simple and like, that’s the most noble thing we can do?

[00:36:53] And, and I think that sometimes, like, that’s the only thing to do because , there are times and I felt it, especially in the last [00:37:00] few years of like these problems feel so big.

[00:37:04] And I, I feel so minuscule like this one person who’s, who’s, you know, screaming at, at the walls and no one’s listening and why aren’t we doing more? And, and that’s just not how change happens.

[00:37:17] Miriam: Yeah, Angela, that to me felt like a mic drop moment.

How to Find Angella

[00:37:22] I just, I can’t even imagine anywhere more important to go than how we treat people, how we treat individuals, how we show them love and that, that truly no matter what you’re in business or otherwise, that is our legacy is how we treated the people around us and how we showed them that they were loved and valued.

[00:37:45] I think with that, I wanna just transition out and give you the opportunity to tell people how to find you, where to find you, they wanna work with you.

[00:37:55] Angella: Yeah. Wonderful. So yeah, where to find me is Angela johnson.com. That’s Angela two [00:38:00] LS. And on Instagram, you can find me at Angela Johnson biz. You can find me there.

[00:38:04] So those are the two best places to reach me and got, you know, free trainings and different offerings for entrepreneurs.

[00:38:11] Miriam: Perfect. Yeah, perfect. So much. We’ll have all of that in the show notes. And as I mentioned before, we started, we like to gift as a thank you a donation in your name and you chose the the charity the nature Conservancy.

[00:38:25] And so we will be donating to the nature Conservancy in your name. And thank you for this time for blessing us with your wisdom.

[00:38:31] What a great conversation.

[00:38:34] Angella: Thank you and thank you for everyone listening for being here so I appreciate it. 

End Credits

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Music by Tom Sherlock.

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

 

Paul Attaway

[00:00:00] Miriam: I’m excited to have Paul Attaway here to speak with us today. He has had a diverse life and I’m really kind of happy to get into some of the various places.

Intro. Paul

[00:00:10] Miriam: He was an attorney for a several years. He spent a huge amount of time in Phoenix, Arizona at a certain point in time. He moved to the holy city in South Carolina, which I wanna hear more about that. You were a 30 year entrepreneur, you sold, raised and sold several businesses. You were a consultant. Then you transitioned into being a writer and there are so few people who can do that and be successful. So all of these are great topics for us to push into.

[00:00:44] Thank you for sharing your time and what did I miss or what do you wanna highlight?

[00:00:48] Paul: Thanks for having me on your show. I guess what you missed is what I failed to tell you, and that is along the way. My wife and I raised three F. Children now, young adults and we have two grandchildren as well. So those [00:01:00] are those were the most demanding task, but also the most rewarding.

Becoming an Attorney

[00:01:03] Miriam: Why don’t we start with some of the early spaces. What, what would you say caused you to get out of the attorney space?

[00:01:12] Paul: Actually being an attorney is what drove me out of being an attorney.

[00:01:16] The high school debate coach went to the sixth grade teachers and said of your kids moving to seventh grade, who do you think would be a good debater?

[00:01:25] And my name kept up. They kept saying this kid just won’t shut up. And so for the time I was basically seventh grade on, I was told, “you should be a lawyer.”

[00:01:35] I go to law school, I loved law school. And then I was actually an attorney. and you know, there’s a joke the only happy attorneys are judges and ex attorneys.

[00:01:46] So about 12 months into it, I realized there’s no way I could do this for the rest of my year. Now that being said, I do not regret for one moment, my legal career.

[00:01:56] It taught me to think very critically. Legal matters [00:02:00] don’t scare me. I’m able to assess them and go, this is important. This is not important. So great education. I don’t regret it, but I also don’t regret, you know, leaving the practice.

[00:02:13] Miriam: What was it like when you made that transition? I think many of our, my listeners are in midlife and they’re kind of saying, do I wanna do this for the rest of my life?

[00:02:23] And yeah, maybe I wanna go out into entrepreneurialism. maybe, Ooh, that feels scary. You know, talk about that transition.

How to Learn

[00:02:32] Paul: It was scary in that I was, I was, you know, going from something that basically for as long as I could remember, this is what I was going to do.

[00:02:41] And then you get there and you’re going, ah, I don’t wanna be here. So that’s, that’s disruptive

[00:02:46] my wife and I were recently at a dinner a couple nights ago. We were speculating. How many of us ended up where we saw ourselves when we were, you know, at that young age?

[00:02:57] So I think when I made that [00:03:00] transition, I had to take to heart something that we had preached to our children. And that is when they said, why do I need to learn this?

[00:03:07] We kept saying, you’re learning how to learn.

[00:03:09] The business of business can be figured out fairly quickly.

[00:03:13] At that point, then it takes a lot of hard work tenaciousness you know, good decision making along the way, but actually understanding business is, is both the hardest thing in the world to do and the easiest thing to understand- it’s just the execution that’s so difficult.

[00:03:30] So the transition was a bit scary, but once I kind of got into it, I realized, okay, I can learn this. I can learn how to do this. And then you, you know, then you apply yourself.

[00:03:40] Miriam: I appreciate the confidence that you knew. You could figure it out. And a thought leader that I really quite like says that “Confidence is not knowing everything- confidence is knowing you can figure it out.”

[00:03:53] Paul: You can figure it out.

Entrepreneur Mindset

[00:03:54] Miriam: And I do think that many entrepreneurs have that at their core, [00:04:00] whether they’re actually in business for themselves or not. I haven’t actually looked up the meaning of the word entrepreneur, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you have a business. It’s more of a mindset and it can become a business.

[00:04:12] Paul: I like that. I hadn’t thought of it in those terms, but I liked the way you put that. And the thought that popped into my head was. You know, we we’ve all read how young people today are gonna have, you know, 30 jobs- our parents had one or two, you know, this, this idea that you worked for one person

[00:04:30] you have to reinvent yourself again and again, and again.

[00:04:33] And so you, I don’t know what the definition of entrepreneur is either. I used to joke- It meant you were unemployable. And you had to create your own job. But I think that really, what I look at is, is problem solving. You have to learn how to solve problems, and you may be in an, have an entrepreneurial mindset and be a very valued employee within, within a company.

[00:04:55] So being an entrepreneur does not mean you have to go start your own business. I think [00:05:00] it’s simply how you approach whatever challenge you’re looking.

[00:05:04] Miriam: It’s a way of thinking.

[00:05:05] Paul: I found that that the legal practice there are, there are some aspects of it where you absolutely have to go and get expert help. Tax law, securities law, any sort of regulatory issue, environmental legal, et cetera. But I would sit down with people and they would be intimidated by the idea of drafting a contract.

Write it Down

[00:05:27] And I go don’t don’t don’t don’t don’t don’t just. Write down what you two agreed to just write it down and the exercise of having to write it down while actually crystallize your thinking. And you’ll find the things you probably ought to think about before you enter into it

[00:05:42] I think what really helped though was in law school, I learned how to read and write how to really read critically.

[00:05:50] And how to write, say what you mean, mean what you say and reduce it to as few words as possible.

[00:05:58] Miriam: That actually feels like good [00:06:00] parenting. Mean what you say and say what you mean and say it in those few words.

[00:06:04] Yeah it’s just possible.

[00:06:05] Paul: Yeah. Cause, cause they’re gonna throw it back at you. yeah.

First Time in Business

[00:06:09] Miriam: Tell me about the first business you got into

[00:06:12] Paul: I was an unhappy attorney and I was speaking to my father who was an entrepreneur.

[00:06:17] He was an engineer, started his own business. And if you remember, you could go through the Sunday edition of the newspaper and it’d be businesses for sale.

[00:06:26] So I found one and I sent the financials to my father to get his input, cuz he had bought and sold some small businesses along the way. And he was like, what in the world’s going on? You know, I paid for law school and I just said, dad, I’m miserable. And he goes, well, you owe me come to work for me. And that was when I said, all right, dad what is it exactly that you do?

[00:06:47] I mean, he manufacture building materials. And so I went to work for my father and I learned more in that five years. And so I, and it was, it was a great experience.

[00:06:59] And so [00:07:00] he he manufactured building materials, architectural standing sea model roofs. Metal treatments for flat roofs expansion, joint systems that accommodate movement, be it thermal and or seismic in buildings went to work for him in the process we met.

Learning From Mistakes

[00:07:16] I met a very, very smart man in Phoenix, Arizona, and we hired him. He had ideas on how to isolate structures from earthquakes. So long story short, I ended up buying the division from my father that I started for him in the field of seismic engineering and my partner and I went out on our own. We raised a little family and friends money and we started ended up starting two businesses together. We had a an unfortunate business breakup, a classic, you know case study on what can go wrong in a partnership. And. We ended up parting ways part of the business, there was simply no way I could do it without [00:08:00] him, because there, it was a specialty.

[00:08:02] And he was one of the few people in the world really out of a few dozen who really knew this. So I, I sold that division. The other part of the business. I was able to continue it on. And that business, we were isolating petrology equipment and high end microscopes from micro vibrations that would frustrate the operation of this equipment.

[00:08:22] These are microscopes that magnify images a hundred thousand times,

[00:08:25] I got burned out and I got burned out on that. I was traveling to Southeast Asia and Germany and, and and I, I sold that.

Real Estate

[00:08:32] And then later that year if you remember the, you know, the, the real estate world collapsed, particularly in places like Arizona. Yeah. And so I became a private real estate lender and I was introduced to a gentleman who understood how to value real estate and knew how to find the borrowers. And I knew how to raise money and sort of manage money.

[00:08:54] And so the two of us came together. We had really complimentary. Skill sets.

[00:08:58] In my first [00:09:00] partnership, I was younger and my my certified smart guy engineer was older. And the second partnership I was the older one and my new partner was younger. But I learned so much from my failed partnership that I sat down with him and I said Hey, we’re getting along great here.

[00:09:16] This is our honeymoon period here. These are all the things that could go wrong. And we hammered out a, a partnership agreement on the front end, so that about five years later. I was older and was ready to do things, some things different and differently, and he wanted to keep going.

[00:09:34] We had an agreement in place that allowed us to separate the business and, and buy each other out, et cetera. That was ended up being a successful exit for me. And he continued with the business and we’re still friends.

Navigating Business Partnerships

[00:09:49] Miriam: People that I have talked with have said any form of business partnership is like a marriage and you better wanna be spending that kind of time and you’re gonna have those kind of [00:10:00] misunderstandings.

[00:10:00] And you know, when you say, when you use the term, the first one was like a classic. Partnership breakup. Can you talk about basically what went wrong? Yes. You fixed those in the, the later version.

[00:10:16] Part of this podcast is practicality wisdom and practicality for business and life. And there are many people who are in partnerships that are struggling.

[00:10:29] And it doesn’t have to even be business. There are some common things to working together with another person and where they can go sideways and where they can really do well.

[00:10:39] Paul: Yeah. I’ll touch on some high level issues or some high level concepts.

[00:10:43] Okay. Communication. So I was you know, I was a successful, you know, high school and college debater, I could win any argument. You find out when you get into actual, meaningful relationships with people winning every argument- it’s not a [00:11:00] great way to, to go about.

[00:11:01] So I met a gentleman back in Phoenix, Arizona who became my life coach – he taught me that communication goes nowhere unless you have somebody who can actually listen to you. And so he talked about giving me the gift of listening Hmm. I call thinking out loud, but when, when, whether it’s a constructive process or you’re battling with somebody, if you can put ’em on hold when they start to talk, and you can say, hold on, what I think I hear you saying is, and then you, you repeat it.

Think Out Loud

[00:11:38] That does a couple of things. One, they get to hear what you heard and they go that’s, that’s not what I said this, oftentimes we hear what we want to hear. Yeah. And the person goes, that’s not what I said, or the person goes no, but I can see why you would think that. Yeah. So this process gets you to really break, break it down.

[00:11:58] And then [00:12:00] oftentimes instead of arguing with somebody, when they hear what they’ve just said, they may go well maybe that’s, you know, they may actually come back.

[00:12:08] So this, this process of communication of, of really listening to the other person, and if it’s volatile that people are angry and their feelings have been hurt, or they’ve misunderstood, this is a de-stressing process that can really pull people back from the ledge.

[00:12:25] And sometimes they just wanna be heard. The other person goes,” I had no idea that’s what you thought. Well, no wonder you’ve been so angry at me. I would’ve been angry too.”

Active Listening

[00:12:34] So this other half of communication, not just the talking, but the active listening, something that my.

[00:12:41] In my next partnership – we did this and it, it, there were times when, you know, he would be angry at me because I X, Y, and Z and vice versa. And when, and we’d come in and go, Hey, we gotta talk. And airing it went a long way.

[00:12:58] When you stop [00:13:00] talking to your partner, I guarantee you there’s something going on. And the longer that silence builds the taller those walls get you know, it’s kind of like nip it in the bud, have the hard conversations as soon as you can. Cuz if you don’t, you’re going to, and they’re gonna just be even harder. I have learned over the years is just, you gotta, you gotta be able to listen to other people.

Similarities in Business Relationships and Other Relationships

[00:13:25] Miriam: Yeah, that’s well spoken and that holds true in business partnerships and in marriages and in friendships and parents and children and the whole nine yards -humanity. Yep.

[00:13:37] If you can’t listen, well, you’re gonna misunderstand and you’re gonna destroy the relationship for sure.

[00:13:44] Paul: It is. And, and in the world, in which we live, that’s dominated by cable news and social media- social media is the absolute worst way to resolve a conflict because basically speaking has become [00:14:00] a way of attacking and no one ever hears what the other person says.

[00:14:05]

Family Business

[00:14:43] Miriam: You worked for your dad. And you your brother was also involved, a lot of entrepreneurs hire family members.

[00:14:52] What can be done to help avoid pitfalls – the word on the street is don’t hire family, don’t

[00:14:58] hire family members. Right. [00:15:00] Right. So, but

[00:15:00] everybody does because they actually trust those people and that’s who they know. And blah, blah. Yeah.

[00:15:07] Paul: Well, that’s why there’s a whole cottage industry out there of dealing with family businesses.

[00:15:12] From the consulting to the therapeutic, to the business, breakups, dealing with family businesses, they are both the best and the worst of all businesses. And course also depends upon the size of your business. If you’re talking about a five to 10 person office and you’ve got two or three family people that that’s a whole different dynamic, if you’re talking about a, you know, you know, a billion dollar enterprise and your third generation family, that’s a whole different situation.

[00:15:40] There’s the, there’s the advice: Never hire someone you can’t fire. Yeah. And it’s hard to fire family members, so there’s a reason not to hire them. Okay. But that doesn’t happen cuz we, we don’t heed that advice cuz we think that our families are strong enough or et cetera, et cetera. We can, [00:16:00] we can overcome that. Okay.

Give Them Time 

[00:16:02] Then I think a practical bit of advice would be don’t hire them right out of school. Don’t have it be their first job. They need to go, you know, they need to go learn how to work elsewhere and develop those habits and gain some confidence in what they’re doing. And then they, then when they come back in, they’re not necessarily the boss’s kid, they’re still the boss’ kid, but they just spent X number of years over here.

[00:16:29] But they come right into the business. It’s not only tough on them. It’s tough on the parent. Some of the employees are not gonna be happy about it.

[00:16:38] Miriam: Yeah, I would agree too, as someone who has done coaching with numerous companies who have hired relatives, I’ve watched the, “I can’t fire them- they’re my spouse. They’re my kid. They’re my brother. They’re my cousin.” And it is problematic. Yeah.

[00:16:56] And. Sometimes, eventually [00:17:00] they end their working relationship. There’s a lot of hurt feelings. The business does do better.

[00:17:06] Yep. And What can I say, family gatherings are pretty awkward.

[00:17:10] Paul: Yes they are. Yeah. Yeah.

The Risk of Working with Family

[00:17:11] Miriam: And many of the other ones I have watched for years and years, and they will not, even though this other person is really sabotaging their company culture or their bottom line, their revenue stream, whatever they won’t get rid of ’em.

[00:17:27] Yeah. And it’s very difficult to move forward. It just, yeah.

[00:17:30] Paul: And in those, those extreme toxic situations, You know, the, the, the business world for them is simply the platform put upon which all their other issues are playing out. You know, this isn’t the, the the business troubles are simply a symptom.

[00:17:47] You know, the, the repercussions of the fact that. They can’t stand answering to this person or, or what other, whatever other dysfunction is going on. Yeah. And yeah. And I would agree. Yeah. You need a [00:18:00] family therapist. You don’t need a business coach in that situation.

[00:18:04] Miriam: no, it’s so true. I actually am a family therapist and that’s what I, that’s part of my, you put two hats on.

[00:18:10] Yes. I’ll say sometimes you need this one and sometimes you need this one and I can do both. But yeah, this is not where your MBA is gonna help you out, right. In that particular instance.

Becoming an Author

[00:18:21] Miriam: So let’s transition into your writing career. One of the things that I hear from so many people is that they have a book inside them I wanna hear a little bit about how you helped you be disciplined enough to finish a book? Yeah. And then how did you make that transition from letting it be your livelihood?

[00:18:42] That’s a, that’s a scary cliff to jump off.

[00:18:44] Yeah, no,

[00:18:44] Paul: it is. In 2015, 2016 is when my partner and I separated and I needed a break. I was, I was exhausted. And we had just become empty nesters. So my wife was really hoping that I wouldn’t [00:19:00] wanna start another business. And it was a very easy promise to make. I said, honey, don’t worry. I’m not doing that again. I was, I was tired. But I, I didn’t wanna do nothing. I couldn’t do nothing.

[00:19:09] So I became a consultant. An executive for hire. And I found that I didn’t really enjoy it. After you’ve been the boss for all those years, it’s exceedingly difficult to just, I mean, I just couldn’t do it

[00:19:23] I’d finish a book and, and sometimes I’d go, that was a fantastic book. Wow. What a great book, or I’d finish a book or I’d put one down and go, that’s terrible, I could do better than that. And so I think my wife, I joke she got sick and tired of hearing me say it. And she says, well, either write the book or just shut up about it.

Do It Yourself

[00:19:39] So I read, I read books on how to write books.

[00:19:41] I read blogs and how to write books. And I had a stack of legal pads, you know, this high of all these ideas, all these ideas. I would walk up the street about six or seven blocks to this very cool old library.

[00:19:54] And so I would sit in the library and literally day one, you know, I’m, I’m staring at the [00:20:00] blank sheet and I had no idea what I was doing and it, like, I had no idea. So I, I met, I met we were introduced to some people living there and this gentleman was older than. And he had had a, a very full career as a film editor.

[00:20:15] And so I, I share with him that I’m trying to write a book and he he knew a thing too about story. And he said, quit trying to write a book. You’ll never do it. If you’re trying to write it from beginning to end, it’s never gonna happen. He said, just write. Just write scenes. Just write and it will happen.

[00:20:36] And then you can stitch the story together later. So I said, okay.

[00:20:40] So I went back to library the next day and, and I just started and I had an idea or two and I just, and, and he was right. So I committed myself. And it was about eight months later that I, I finished my first book.

[00:20:55] Miriam: Wow. Really? It’s almost like a pregnancy.

Low-Pressure Writing

[00:20:57] Paul: We were in a position to where I didn’t have to [00:21:00] feed the family. With proceeds from book sales. So I didn’t have that hanging over my head. That would be an entirely, just different decision process. For me, I was fortunate. I didn’t need to go right out and find another paying job. I could take this risk and I’m, I’m glad I did.

[00:21:23] When I sat down and I write the second book, I at least knew that I could write a book.

[00:21:28] So that was, that was good. I had, and the second book it’s a sequel to the first book, but I wrote it so it’s a standalone book. I had some characters developed. So I had, I had a bit of a, a launching pad.

[00:21:39] Yeah. The first book I joked that I was about a third of the way through it and I go, this is boring. So I had to, I had to kill somebody, so killed someone and now we have a murder. And so it became more interesting, I think, after that.

[00:21:52] So the books are there’re suspense, thrillers, family dramas, you know, set in Charleston, South Carolina in the [00:22:00] 1970s.

[00:22:01] When I sat down to, to get into this writing I read a lot of books and on how to, how to write a book. And I have a style. But storytelling, I think is something that you can learn and you can get better at it. And so a lot of, you know you know, a good story, you know, there’s, you need, what’s called an inciting event, you know, you’ve got your characters and then something happens to them.

[00:22:26] So I focus on, on building a story with hopefully meaningful character arc.

Using Books to Escape

[00:22:33] Miriam: Yeah, you write them the way you can and that’s what makes your work identifiable as being written by you, just like an artist paints their way and yeah. Yeah. What do you, what, what would you like to in your mind accomplish by writing these books?

[00:22:53] Paul: I’d say a couple of things. I write fiction. I would hope that it would be escapism. [00:23:00] That you’re going to read the book and you’re going to go, wow, that was a fun. You know, I enjoyed that ending. That was wow. I didn’t see that coming. So just simple escapism.

[00:23:12] I think at the same time though you know, I have a worldview and some of my characters share my worldview. And and so, you know, my worldview is, is Christ- centered. Now I don’t beat people over the head with that. At least I try not to, but I try to show real life characters that are very flawed. That are challenged by the, by their children, their spouse, their career, whatever bad thing happens to them that they’re not perfect. They’re not holier-than-thou, but how it is that they you know learn to trust through that process.

[00:23:49] So I I want people to enjoy the, the the escapism. But I might take a little liberties to just sort of show maybe what I feel about [00:24:00] something through my books. Yeah.

Find Paul’s Books

[00:24:01] Miriam: I love it. Why don’t you just share the titles and where people can get them? Yeah.

[00:24:06] Paul: So the first book is called Blood in the Low Country and the blood is because one, there is a murder, but two it’s about family and blood is family.

[00:24:15] And the second book, which just came out this year in May, is called Eli’s Redemption. And it is a bit of a sequel though. Again, it’s a standalone.

[00:24:25] . So my name is, is Paul Attaway and you can find them on you know, Amazon, the evil empire.

[00:24:32] And you can go to my website, Paul attaway.com. And then I’m on I’m on Instagram and Facebook

[00:24:38] Miriam: Very good. I appreciate the time and your wisdom. You gave some great practical tips and, you know,

[00:24:45] going along with that vein of story, I think I mentioned to you before we got on that. We like to do a gift in your name to a charity and you chose Mercy Ships and their story is remarkable as they have doctors and dentists and [00:25:00] physical therapists volunteering their time giving underserved people, surgeries for free.

[00:25:06] Yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you. Thank you for your choice with that and thank you for your time and what a joy to meet you.

[00:25:13] Paul: Well, thank you. I very much enjoyed it.

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Music by Tom Sherlock.

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As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

 

Tina Greenbaum

[00:00:00] Miriam: All right today. I am so excited to have with us. Tina Greenbaum. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate your time. You have a coaching company- Mastery Under Pressure. You’re working with high performing executives, mastering their interpersonal and inter -departmental. Skills. So you’re a licensed psychotherapist and a professional sports psychology consultant.

[00:00:23] And I’m excited to hear you explain how being good at your profession doesn’t necessarily make job. You’ve also written a book Mastery Under Pressure. We’re gonna get into all of that. Welcome to the leave better podcast.

[00:00:37] Tina: Thank you. Thanks so much, Miriam. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:41] Miriam: So before we get into the meat of things, if you don’t mind, just telling me a little bit about your backstory, kind of orient us around who you are and where you spend your time and energy.

[00:00:50] Tina Intro.

[00:00:50] Miriam: Okay. So okay. So who am I? I love that question. cuz I’m very, I have many different roles professionally.

[00:00:58] Tina: I am a licensed clinical [00:01:00] social worker. I’m really a social worker, you know, it’s, it’s the basis of social work is the interface between the person and their environment. And so I have a mission statement that in order to change, you know, your company, everything else, you need to ch you need to work on yourself.

[00:01:18] And so I. I love the combination. I’m a, I’m a connector at heart. And I, I see all the different pieces that, that people including myself need to work on. So I started out working. My first job was working on an eating disorders unit at the Washington hospital center in Washington, DC. And I tell the story that they, nobody had ever treated eating disorders before.

[00:01:40] This is almost 40 years ago and they handed us a manual and it said eating dis, it said, alcoholism. Crossed it out and put eating disorders and then they said, there you go. And I just finished doing a TEDx talk. I don’t know about you, but I really like being successful and I wasn’t being successful.

[00:01:59] I used to [00:02:00] say to the young women, I hear you. But I don’t feel you. And if I don’t feel you intuitively, I knew that you weren’t gonna change.

[00:02:07] Because the body holds all the memory and this combination of the mind and the body do work together. And my traditional therapy training was, I was like a talking head. But I wasn’t being successful in changing. And so my first job was at a I mean, my first clue to getting below the neck was at a yoga class where I was in the state of Shivasina.

[00:02:28] And you know, that, that pose where you’re just at the end of a class and, and my body was so quiet. My mind was so clear and I said, wow, if I could just get these young women to do this, maybe they wouldn’t need their eating disorder. Because in my experience, all addictions are anxiety based. And so if I could quiet down the anxiety, perhaps they could, you know, they could change.

[00:02:48] So my whole career has really been about how do I get under the conscious mind? And so all the trainings that I’ve taken have that in common. You know, EMDR[00:03:00] tapping integrated caballistic healing matrix, energetics.

[00:03:04] I had breast cancer and I created a program called cancer dancer, and I love experiential work. So every time I’d get through a. A portion of my journey. I could then teach it. Couldn’t teach it before and I couldn’t teach it during, but I could teach it afterwards.

[00:03:21] And then. Started working with my husband who teaches tennis. And he had a young player who would said to him, you know, my husband said to him, he says, you gotta go out there.

[00:03:29] You gotta be aggressive. You gotta be confident. And I said, that’s great. I said, he just doesn’t have a clue how to do it. Yeah. But I know how to teach him how to do it. So that started this Tennis to the Max and then that evolved into Mastery Under Pressure, where I moved into working with business people and leaders and all kinds of.

[00:03:49] Miriam: Wow. It’s like somebody’s life in four minutes or less.

[00:03:53] Your training initially was with people who were on the opposite end of that pendulum mm-hmm . And what [00:04:00] sort of things did you have to change in your mindset to be able to change who you’re working with?

[00:04:07] Mindset Shift

[00:04:07] Tina: Well, it’s a great question because. One of the very first things, you know, anybody that gets into this field and that’s really good at it. You have to have a level of emotional intelligence. You have to be empathic and empathic means I can jump into your shoes and I can see the world from your point of view, which is a great trait to have, except you can get swallowed up in it.

[00:04:28] Yes. If you’re not, if you, if you’re not careful about your boundaries. And so I had a. A supervisor very, very early on in my training. And she said, oh, Tina, she said, you’re never gonna survive. And she said, if you’re in the problem with your client, you are absolutely no good to them. Cuz now you’ve got two people that are just as depressed and nobody helping nobody helping the other one.

[00:04:50] And so I never forgot that. Not with my kids, not with my clients, not with whoever I work with. I always have to be outside of the problem. so that I [00:05:00] can see the issue in a way that I can help them find the path. Yeah. So it really didn’t matter who I was working with because as you started saying this very beginning, we all have a backstory.

[00:05:12] And so when I started to recognize no matter who you were. No matter how high up you were, no matter how successful, no matter how much money you made, you know, we all have a story.

[00:05:22] Nobody escapes life. Right. And so as I began to start to see no matter who you were, no matter how down you were, there was always this gem that you had, not yet. ignited Yeah. You know, and if I could help you to do that, then you’re on your way.

[00:05:39] Miriam: There you go.

[00:05:40] Sports Psychology

[00:05:40] Miriam: So jump in with the piece about the sports psychology and the high performers, because there are, there seem to be many links between those two things.

[00:05:49] Tina: Yes I have three sons and my two younger ones were very, very competitive soccer players. And my youngest one went really pretty far. He, he was, had the [00:06:00] potential to be a professional player. And so I used to say, I don’t know a lot about soccer, but I know a lot about psychology and when I would watch them.

[00:06:07] Particularly, you know, it’s, it’s the end of the end of a match and you know, it’s zero, zero. And my son is in front of the goal, you know, kicking a, a penalty kick. I don’t need to teach him how to kick. He knows how to kick, you know, it’s the mental side, like, what does he need to know in order to be able to manage this high stress situation?

[00:06:28] And so, because in soccer actually, You know, the person who’s kicking the ball should, should win because the goal is much bigger than the, than the goalie. And so I started to kind of study sports psychology, and I said, wow, focus, relaxation, you know, dealing with negative self talk, how to visualize, dealing with fear.

[00:06:48] These are all things that are part of my bandwidth you know, getting into that deep state of meditation, which is what I was talking about before. And so. Sports psychology in its essence [00:07:00] is really spiritual work. So there is no difference. Really it’s really learning how to be in the moment, how to quiet down those thoughts.

[00:07:09] It was just a very natural mix for me, cuz it didn’t matter if you were a high pressured athlete or a corporate leader. I lived in DC for a long time. So I dealt with the lawyers.

[00:07:19] You know, heavy duty, high powered lawyers and big egos and I mean, just crazy, crazy stuff. And then living in New York with actors, dancers, performers, you know, you’re in New York, you’re competing

[00:07:33] in a Broadway show or, you know, as a ballet dancer, you’re at the peak, this is the Olympics. It doesn’t get any bigger than this. Yeah. So all these things are, are all transferable skills in my mind. And so it doesn’t matter if it’s women with eating disorders and working with the things that tennis players need to know and so on, but the inner game.

[00:07:56] It’s all the same.

[00:07:57] Truth is Truth

[00:07:57] Miriam: It’s the same. I love that. You’re saying [00:08:00] this because the inner game is the same. I was telling someone the other day I work mostly with business owners and I was saying, you know, it is, it’s a game. It is a game with actual rules. And so much of what I think about these veins of thinking are if you follow the road, they all lead back to the same place.

[00:08:21] Tina: Absolutely. They do like truth is truth. And then truth is truth. You know, you dress it up in whatever kind of clothing is right for that particular discipline.

[00:08:29] I would really like to hear more about how you help people with their negative self talk.

[00:08:35] I have something on my YouTube channel. It’s, it’s a series about this and it’s called positive thinking is highly overrated. And you might think that’s a little crazy, but when you think about changing your thoughts to something like, , I’m gonna make a million dollars.

[00:08:51] The affirmations where you’re repeating something. But there’s another part of you that’s quietly saying, no, you gotta be kidding. Mm-hmm that’s not really not [00:09:00] gonna happen. Mm-hmm so if we’re not careful and we don’t really know the whole piece, there’s a part that may sabotage that positive thinking.

Productive Thinking

[00:09:09] So I like to call it productive thinking. Yeah. Do my thoughts produce something useful for me? Let’s just say. I’m getting ready to give this, this talk with you. And I say, God, you know, I’m really tired. And I had a really didn’t sleep well last night. And I don’t know if I could do this and well, just by the sound of my voice and the energy level that I have, I need to ask myself, I need to tune in first.

[00:09:40] Right. And you know this from, from your work as well. Awareness is everything. Yeah. How am I talking to myself? Yeah. Well, is this talk gonna take me to a good interview? No, I don’t think so. Okay. So how can I change it? What do I need to do to shift [00:10:00] those, those words? To give me the energy that I need to be able to do?

[00:10:04] Well, what’s the good news about doing this. I love doing this. Hmm. I absolutely love doing it. I love these conversations and yeah, maybe I didn’t get great sleep last night, but the adrenaline, you know, can pull me through and I can rest later and so on so no matter what the negative thought is, there is a way, if you take a moment to tweak it and twist.

[00:10:27] Miriam: Sure. That’s kind of how I deal with it. I agree entirely. And I’m gonna ask you to elaborate a teeny bit more because what I find with most people is that they’re not even aware of what they’re thinking. And so there’s this step before. How do you change your negative thinking to how do you even hear your negative thinking?

Awareness is Everything

[00:10:47] Tina: So you’re absolutely right. Awareness is everything.

[00:10:50] And the definition for mindfulness is being aware in the present moment without judgment.

[00:10:59] . The [00:11:00] body gets trigger. Before the mind. We have 175 milliseconds from the time and event happens until the time that we’re aware that it happens. It’s like half of a blink of an eye.

[00:11:11] Yeah. So if you want to change, the first thing that you wanna do is you wanna notice soon as you start to get triggered, what does it feel like when you get criticized by your boss? Well, my body tightens up. That’s your signal.

[00:11:28] There it is.

[00:11:29] That’s your signal. So the way that I, do it, it goes cut, reframe response. So cut means soon as you notice it, stop just. I liken it kind of like it to a movie. Yeah. You know, and you’re slowing down the movie frame by frame, by frame. Okay. Now we can see what’s happening. Okay. Then the next step is notice , notice the thoughts and the feelings that are running through the body.

[00:11:57] Again, just like you’re slowing down that movie. [00:12:00] And then lastly is respond. Choose to respond differently. You have an option rather than reacting in that same old, way.

[00:12:07] Take Time to Pause

[00:12:07] Miriam: Absolutely. You’re speaking my language. I say stuff like this too. I think that one of the challenges that I have had with the people I work with is that they’re very busy and they live at a very fast pace and getting them motivated.

[00:12:21] To pause.

[00:12:22] For anybody interested in this topic deeper besel VanDerKolk has a book called The Body Keeps the Score. Yes. It’s pretty technical, but it talks about how this stuff lives in our body. If we wanna catch our thoughts, we have to catch what’s happening within us.

[00:12:38] And then you’re off to the races because wow. We don’t realize the terrible things we think about ourselves and. Those things keep us squished down into smaller versions of ourselves.

[00:12:51] I wanna shift a little bit. That was fantastic. How can people recognize when they’re in or out of focus?

Focus

[00:12:58] Tina: I might be sitting [00:13:00] here. And I’ve got a list of things that I, that I’m wanting to do or needing to do. And I’ll say to myself, you’re all over the place. Mm. You know, you’re not doing this, you’re not doing that. You’re getting distracted. You know, you’re looking at your mail. Again, so the whole thing that we’re talking about, Miriam, more than anything is awareness.

[00:13:22] Yeah. You can’t change anything if you’re not aware. So how quickly can you start to tune in to what’s happening in here? When you do this work and you do it over and over and over again, you have neural pathways that you have created that bypass a lot of the same old, same old stuff.

[00:13:41] So it’s not like I don’t get distracted cuz I do. I just catch it pretty quickly. And so once I catch it, then I start to have an antidote.

[00:13:51] I took a, a wonderful course. It was called the neuroscience of the flow state. And again, it’s peak performance

[00:13:57] but basically when we [00:14:00] talk about flow and, and, where everything is clicking for you and, and, you know, time expands actually.

Hyperfocus

[00:14:06] Most of us think that it’s a hit or miss kind of situation, but it actually, you can train yourself

[00:14:12] when you’re hyperfocused, your dopamine level is very, very high.

[00:14:17] You can only kind of do that, honestly. 90 minutes. You know, some people two hours maybe at tops.

[00:14:25] So the way I plan my day those things that require me to think to really, really think or write or that hyper focus I’m gonna do early in the morning. .

[00:14:34] We wanna be hyper focused when we’re doing this concentrated work, then we wanna do the opposite. We wanna let the mind wander. You know, when you’re in the shower or you’re gardening or you’re walking and oh, ah, I could do this.

[00:14:48] Oh I, and so the creative mind gets an opportunity. The right brain gets an opportunity cause there’s different hormones now that are starting to kick in and then we can go back to work.

[00:14:59] . And we’re gonna have that [00:15:00] much better concentration. And then we need another one of those breaks. So for people who are, , these high power.

[00:15:06] I don’t have time. I don’t have time. Every single minute, is scheduled. They’re working against their own peak potential. , because we can’t function at that level over long periods of time.

Take a Break

[00:15:18] Miriam: I would agree. They think that they can, but if you actually look at their performance, they do better

[00:15:24] if they just take a tiny break, you have to kind of find your own rhythm, is it every hour? Is it every hour and a half?

[00:15:30] I have people ask me constantly, will I do two hour sessions? And I say, no,

[00:15:35] And they’re like, well, we’ll pay you X amount or whatever. And I say, no, no, it isn’t how I like to work.

[00:15:39] My brain wants to work this amount of time. And then it wants a break. Right? And I’m happy to meet with you two days in a row, but I am not happy to meet with you two hours in a day. I can do it, but it’s just not my favorite.

[00:15:52] Tina: I just had a fabulous interview with a guy who is works for Deloitte big financial firm. Now he has a little opportunity to look [00:16:00] back.

[00:16:00] And he said, I was saying all the time I was doing it for them. I was working 12, 15 hours a for them. He said, but no, I was really driven by me. Yeah. You know, thinking that this is what I needed to do in order to be successful. And he said it had consequences.

[00:16:55] Self-Sabotage in Mindset and Behavior

[00:16:55] Miriam: What are the ways you see people self sabotaging themselves, [00:17:00] either in their mindset or in their behaviors?

[00:17:02] Tina: Earlier in my career and I was seeing people all over the board, so just all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds.

[00:17:09] and so the level of awareness was less mm-hmm I believe that what we’re talking  good mental health is not a natural sport. It’s a learned sport. Yeah. We learn a lot from our parents, but I know that your parents or my parents never had this kind of training that you were already talking about.

[00:17:27] Right. So my parents came from the school of, of common sense and hard knocks and they, and that took us a long way. But my mother, God bless her didn’t have a mean bone in her body, but she was a master manipulator and she could triangulate the family.

[00:17:43]  I wanna ask my father something, I’d go ask my mother and she’d go through my father and you know, all these different kinds of things that we know now as trained professionals. Get into get us into trouble. Yeah. And so just like a good business, a good business. If you have this going for you and not going for you and [00:18:00] your numbers are good and your marketing and your sales and your, it, it works.

[00:18:03] It works. Yeah. And it’s the same thing. Like a human being. You know, when we have our boundary set straight and we know how to communicate, and we have this level of awareness and we have a level of authenticity and, and we work, you know, again, it’s, it’s like they say an AA, you know, the program works if you work it and it, and it does.

[00:18:23] So when I’m seeing people who are just not as educated in this field, they have more work to.

[00:18:30] When you don’t have the level of awareness, you walk into your own mess, you walk into situations and you don’t even realize it. And, and you really don’t have the skill to get yourself out. Yeah, until you go to school in some way, it could be the school of hard knocks, you know, and, and, and run up against something over and over again, which raises your level of awareness, which then you decide I need to, I work on this.

[00:18:52] Blind Spots

[00:18:52] Tina: We all have blind spots. Yeah. Wouldn’t you like to know yours because everybody else knows though.

[00:18:58] Miriam: Oh my goodness. Yes. If [00:19:00] only we could get people to tell us kindly in a way that we could hear.

[00:19:04] People do sometimes tell us, but they tell us in anger

[00:19:08] I was thinking about. This morning I was doing an equine session.

[00:19:13] The horses are honest and they tell you. What your blind spots are.

[00:19:18] And it’s fascinating to have someone say, oh my gosh, you, we talked about this in the office. Now I understand right, right. Because they had an experience within themselves and they could see their ineffective behaviors at play.

[00:19:34] Tina: Yes.

[00:19:34] The Three I’s

[00:19:34] Tina: So I think in terms of how we sabotage the way it shows.

[00:19:39] Is, we hit up against a wall mm-hmm , whatever that wall is, it could be our relationships. You know, our kids might be really mad at us or we’re drinking too much, or we’re smoking too much marijuana or we’re not coming home at night or we’re working 18 hours a day, or it could be any number of things.

[00:19:57]  I have, I have a little. Way [00:20:00] that I look at the, the process of transformation mm-hmm and it’s I call it the three I’s.

[00:20:05] Insight

[00:20:05] Tina: So you start out with Insight, which is kind of what we’re talking about. It’s raising this level of awareness. Oh yeah. I see the patterns.

[00:20:13] People think that there might be so many things wrong with them. There’s not, there’s only a couple patterns that we just repeat over and over and over and over and over again.

[00:20:20] Implementation

[00:20:20] Tina: The next I call is Implementation.

[00:20:23] Now we’ve got new skills that we implement into these areas as we notice, oh, I used to do it this way. Let me try this. Let me try this. Let me try this. And I call that the long haul. That’s really where the behavior change really happens. Yeah. And it takes time. We call it self sabotage, but you, and I know that the defense mechanisms that we create, we created for a good reason.

[00:20:48] Miriam: Absolutely.

[00:20:49] Tina: They were survival mechanisms and they will not. Will not just go away and disappear. That’s why the self-loathing just doesn’t work. Cuz all you’re doing is doing what was done [00:21:00] to you as a kid. You know, I hate, hate that. I hate when I do that or oh, you know, hear parents, you know, criticizing you.

[00:21:07] So we have to be able to have compassion for that. Part of us understand the purpose that it’s serving because all behavior has a positive intent. It’s all intended to protect us in some way or another. Yeah. So it’s a dance, there’s a part of us that’ll give, you know, let us do something and then it won’t, and then we negotiate.

[00:21:29]  The unconscious needs to trust that this new behavior is gonna take care of us in a way that the old behavior did when we were kids.

[00:21:36] Integration

[00:21:36] Tina: And then, and the last thing is, is Is Integration where it becomes second nature.

[00:21:41] Miriam:  Was gonna guess that was your third “I”- integration. Yes.

[00:21:44] One of the things that you mentioned earlier you still have this issue or this issue, but you just catch it quicker. I think that the longer you spend watching yourself looking at these patterns, looking for the self-growth spaces, The [00:22:00] more quickly, you are able to absolutely notice you notice the subtle things and you’re like, this is going to happen.

[00:22:08] I can tell I am headed this direction. And then you can take action on that. And it doesn’t have to be the same episode, you know, it’s, I know there’s some shows that are basically the same episode over and over and over. They just change the people’s clothes or the person’s name it’s like. It doesn’t have to be that way.

[00:22:26] But also you were talking about this power of transformation. And I guess I, I wanna throw in there that not everybody transforms. You have to actually want it just because you’re on the day on the planet another day doesn’t mean you’re going to be wiser. It takes effort to yes.

[00:22:46] Bring about what you’re talking about.

[00:22:48] It Takes Effort

[00:22:48] Tina: It does. And the other thing that I, I really wanna put a plug in for, sometimes we feel like we want to do it and we just can’t. Yeah. And things like [00:23:00] depression or anxiety or, you know, bipolar disorder or things that are real that have a chemical base to it. That we’ve had so much shame around.

[00:23:11] When you haven’t been able to move forward and you’ve tried this and you’ve tried the things that you and I are talking about and they still don’t work. That means that there’s something else that’s going on that has not yet been addressed.

[00:23:23] Yes. And so I, I, I really, I just had a conversation with somebody who was talking about his, his you know, 30 year old daughter and the issues that she was having and you know, in school and in a master’s program and couldn’t get out of bed and. I said, we gotta make sure that that medication is really working or, or she can’t stop thinking about something or we have to make sure that she, you know, the OCD may be, may be in there.

[00:23:47] So this is the time now that we have the privilege to talk about that these things go on. Yeah. And would just encourage people don’t give up because there are answers. These things are treatable.

[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Everything, you know, this is a holistic approach, mind, body, spirit, and emotion,

[00:24:05] Miriam: I appreciate that hope because a lot of times it’s easy to get down on yourself while I’ve tried and I’ve tried and, and this hasn’t shifted and I appreciate you saying, well, we’re not done yet.

[00:24:15] There’s still more to, to push into.

[00:24:18] Starting and Owning a Business

[00:24:18] Miriam: You are a business owner and mm-hmm what would you say has surprised you about owning a business and, and working with people?

[00:24:25] Tina: Okay, so I have started five private practices.

[00:24:29] Mm-hmm all those places that I mentioned that I moved to I started over because it wasn’t until the last move. When I moved out to California, that the internet could come with me. Yes, as I could bring my clients with me online. So I got really good at starting private practices. I got divorced in 2004, 2005. And I knew that if I didn’t scale my business, I could never retire. Cuz that was just one on one, you know, just me.

[00:24:57] So I started taking [00:25:00] business coaching courses.

Five Year Plan

[00:25:02] I walk into one training at one point and this very, very wise business strategist said to me, so what’s your five year plan.

[00:25:11] My my five year plan. I mean, I don’t know, I, this looks like the next best thing to do. I realized that there was a lot that I didn’t know.

[00:25:20] One of my friends said to me, she said, don’t ever take a coaching, you know, sign on with a coach without getting three really good live referrals.

[00:25:30] Not necessarily just their testimonials on their website, but really getting live referrals. Mm-hmm of people that have successfully gotten to a place where that person said that they could take them. Mm.

[00:25:41] I’m not great at the financial, you know, projections and the planning. And I don’t, I don’t have an MBA, but I needed an MBA. I needed that person who could look at the numbers in a way that I can, if you explain it to me, I can get it, you know, but that’s not my, that’s not my genius.

[00:25:59] So I have [00:26:00] a really good friend who says, if it’s not your genius, it’s not your job.

[00:26:03] I like it

[00:26:04] I have a wonderful team. Now I have a genius bookkeeper who, and, and a tax planner and somebody that’s helping me with LinkedIn and my social media and, and the artwork. And my son is a content marketer.

[00:26:19] And there you go. And all the things that. Don’t do well. Don’t enjoy, I’m not trained in that. – I have the time to do this. That I absolutely love doing.

Founder vs Solo Entrepreneur

[00:26:31] Another fellow that I did some work with, he said the difference between a founder and a solo entrepreneur is the founder has a team.

[00:26:38] Yeah.

[00:26:39] And I was a, solo entrepreneur for a very long time. Sure. You know, really working to do everything.

[00:26:45] The other thing that I would also offer is “trading” is really good. Mm-hmm, bartering with people who have services of things that you really need, and they need you, and you need them. Some of my [00:27:00] most valuable, valuable, you know, people and, and advice and, and help I’ve gotten through through bartering.

[00:27:06] So if you don’t have the money, it’s, it’s a really good way to, you know, to kind of move through some of those really early stages.

[00:27:12] Miriam: Yeah. It’s good. Because whenever you start anything, there is this space where you’re just trying to figure it all out. You don’t even know what you need. Don’t know.

[00:27:24] You don’t know, you don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:27:25] You don’t know what you don’t know. Yeah. And then you have to launch into this space where no, I could do it, or I should be able to do it, or I don’t know who to hire. And at some point you hire someone and you find out how much better they make your life, and then you’re free to do what you’re the best at

[00:27:44]  I appreciate you using the word, your, your own genius. That is yes. What we each need to do is figure out what our own genius is and then do it and then give other people jobs. So they can do the other stuff. We’re not good at exactly. So exactly.

[00:27:59] Mastery Under Pressure

[00:27:59] Miriam: What do you [00:28:00] think that you are chasing at this stage in your life?

[00:28:03] Tina: I know exactly what I’m chasing and I’ve been chasing it for a long time. I’m getting a lot closer. I really want this business to make a huge impact. All the things that we’re talking about, I believe so strongly. People just don’t know. how To do the work that we’re talking about. I’m really a teacher at heart.

[00:28:21] And so my passion is to spread Mastery Under Pressure, I remember when I moved into New York city and somebody said, How many therapists there are. I said, do you know how many people need help?

[00:28:31] So what I’m chasing is to be able to do this at a really big impact level. Nice. Yeah.

[00:28:39] Miriam: You spoke a little bit about your book Mastery Under Pressure, and I’m gonna ask you in a minute kind of how and where we can find that.

[00:28:46] But what is another book that you would recommend that you felt like was life changing or you give to other people or is a good resource?

[00:28:57] Tina: Jack Canfield. Mm-hmm has the [00:29:00] book called the success principles?

[00:29:02] I’m in a small little mastermind group. We’re all business people and interested in personal and spiritual growth. So that was one of them, Tony Robbins book an old, an old one Awakening the Giant Within. also really, really good book.

[00:29:16] I’m reading this one right now, which I think is really interesting.

[00:29:19] Never split the difference. It’s a negotiating book. And this guy was an FBI negotiator hostage probably still is. But what’s really interesting. Is the things that he talks about in terms of being a good negotiator, is, is that level of empathy and getting somebody, whether you’re negotiating for a job or a salary or with your kids, or it’s I hear you, you know, the most basic thing that people want is to be heard.

[00:29:46] How to Find Tina

[00:29:46] Miriam: I bet you could recommend 10 or 15, but we’re gonna stop at three. that’s very good. Why don’t you share where people can find you?

[00:29:55] Tina: So my book is on Amazon. It’s also on my website, which is mastery under [00:30:00] pressure.com.

[00:30:00] And I also have a quiz it’s called mastery under pressure.net. So you could take a quiz and see where you sit on this focus, relaxation, dealing with negative. Self-talk how to visualize in dealing with fear. So that’s kind of a fun thing to do, and you get a little report back, but just even taking the test kinda, oh, I never thought about that.

[00:30:21] Yeah. And Yeah, just look up my name. I’ve got lots of podcasts, lots of things on YouTube. Just trying to share it, share the message.

[00:30:28] Miriam: I’m very excited. I’ve of course I’m gonna spend some time checking those things out. And Tina, this has been just lovely. I mentioned before we started that we wanted to gift you with a donation in your name from one of four charities and you chose the Shedrick wildlife trust.

[00:30:45] I’m so excited about that. Because we’re gonna sign you up with a little girl elephant. Who’s been orphaned and you’re gonna get monthly updates. And that’s another way that you will be doing good in the world, even across an ocean. So [00:31:00] thank you so much for the gift of your time and your wisdom. What a joy.

[00:31:04] Tina: Thanks, Miriam. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. The same.

 

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts, or wherever podcasts are found.

Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

All LeaveBetter Podcast episodes can be found here.

Music by Tom Sherlock.

If you are curious to know more, please contact me!

As someone who has been a therapist for over a decade and has been coaching people for over three decades, I am uniquely qualified to address your concerns.

 

 

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[00:00:00] Miriam: Welcome Jason. I’m very happy to have you join the leave better podcast. Something I pulled off your website that I found to be just thought provoking: “When you know what your values are and actively and passionately apply them in your life.

[00:00:14] You have found yourself, and that is likely to make a positive impact on the people both near and far. This is a life of value.” Mic drop right there. this conversation is gonna be so great because we are talking about wisdom. You’ve got a book out there called wisdom, a very valuable virtue that cannot be bought, which is a mouthful to say mm-hmm

[00:00:39] I bet it’s incredible to read it’s on my list now. Welcome to the podcast. I can’t wait to see where this conversation goes.

[00:00:46] Jason: Yeah, thanks so much. I love being quoted just right off the bat. I mean, you know, kidding aside, of course. It does signal that that you, you know, care enough about your guests to to look into them, which is you know, one of the marks of a.

[00:00:59] Have a great host. [00:01:00]

[00:01:00] Miriam: Well, thank you.

[00:01:02] So why don’t we start out with, I gave a teeny little introduction, but it doesn’t actually tell who you are and what you do. So why don’t you fill in the gaps? Tell us what I missed and what you wanna highlight.

Introduction Jason

[00:01:14] Jason: Okay. Well, I began to study psychology at the junior college level and found it to be so interesting.

[00:01:23] And then I was thinking that I wanted to be a clinical psychologist.

[00:01:28] I wrote a thesis on social perceptions of suicide. But during that time I decided, you know, maybe I would.

[00:01:34] Do something else. So I twist it and turn toward this thing that I call values of the wise,

[00:01:41] If there is such thing as a wise person, then what, what values are they interested in? And which virtues would they, you know, seek to cultivate within themselves and, and what kind of life would they lead?

[00:01:52] The quotations that they’ve left behind a little bit of biography and just to kind of try to stitch it all together and say, you know, Hey, if, [00:02:00] if Helen Keller and. JFK and Martin Luther king Jr. And Gandhi are all talking about this same value theoretically or arguably well, then it must be a pretty good value because those people and other exemplars lived wonderful lives achieved much.

[00:02:17] And so we should, you know, kind of try to peer in on what they were thinking and how they educated themselves and, and what moved them.

[00:02:25] Miriam: Yeah, that feels pretty profound even in, in and of itself. So I’m gonna ask you kind of a 1-2 sentence question.

[00:02:33] My kids tease me all the time because I’m like in one sentence or less …

Wisdom vs Foolish

[00:02:37] Miriam: When you think about the differentiator between wisdom- wise and not, wise or and foolish, or wise and ordinary, give me a sentence that differentiates those two spaces.

[00:02:51] Jason: Okay. I like that constraint that makes me self- discipline myself.

[00:02:56] . A wise person is [00:03:00] relatively hesitant to foreclose on some idea or ideology.

[00:03:09] And instead kind of holds that tentatively and is always willing to change and doesn’t feel ashamed if they do need to change.

[00:03:17] Miriam: Ah, that feels, that feels like a go on plaque, maybe. Well spoken

[00:03:22] I appreciated on your website, you had that quote from Albert Einstein wisdom is not a product of schooling, but a lifelong attempt to acquire it.

[00:03:32] Right. And I feel like his words probably are dovetailing with your words in your mind, as far as this idea of. We’re not gonna be black and white. It’s not that wise people don’t have positions, but they’re open to entertaining ideas other than their own. And they’re not so quick to just jump down your throat and tell you why you’re wrong.

Lifelong Education

[00:03:57] Jason: I think that that Einstein quote is a [00:04:00] kind of a brilliant example of, we should think that, you know, you don’t just get it at age 18,

[00:04:06] in fact Mortimer J Adler, who is, you know, one of these big names in the world of the Western intellectual tradition and great books and such, he says that he’s read books numerous times throughout his life. And each time they make a bit of, they make a, a difference in a different way. It’s as though he sees things that he didn’t see before and he thinks, well, the book hasn’t changed.

[00:04:27] It must be me. I must have changed.

[00:04:30] And you know, so he believes in lifelong education and he doesn’t even necessarily believe that that. Youths adolescents are, are ready for those big ideas.

[00:04:41] If you ask an 18 year old, what is the purpose of life? The answer you’re gonna get is probably a little shallow, or maybe it, it parrots something that they just saw on YouTube or something. As you get older, you start to realize, well, gosh, maybe my day, my days are numbered.

[00:04:57] I might only have what, 20 years [00:05:00] or 30, if I’m lucky. You don’t even know if you have 20 years. You may have 20 more minutes. So that’s right.

[00:05:06] Miriam: I think that something that’s so fascinating about what we’re talking about.

Current Truth

[00:05:13] I am not a relativist. I do believe that there is actual truth. However, there also is this thing that is your truth at the moment. And some of that has to do with brain development

[00:05:25] 22 year olds brains. Fully done yet. Right?

[00:05:30] Right. And by the time they’re 25 or 30, they’re more mature. And then by the time they’re 60 or 70 certain parts of the brain have died off and new parts have arisen new pathways.

[00:05:43] What, you know, and wisdom is such a fascinating topic because it is hard to pin down.

[00:05:51] As you, asked this question at the very beginning, you said, okay, if you’re looking at Helen Keller and Gandhi and Martin Luther king.

[00:05:59] And if they have some [00:06:00] of the same values, we should pay attention to them.

Values Among Leaders

[00:06:03] Miriam: So I wanted to ask what are some of the common values that you’ve seen as you’ve done your research among these great leaders?

[00:06:12] Jason: I riffed off of Abraham Maslow, who came up with this famous theory about the needs that human beings have with, you know, food, shelter, clothing, sex, et cetera, at the, at the base level, meaning it’s the most, they they’re the most persistent needs, but once satisfied, the human mind always wants to go up the ladder toward greater and greater actualization, like the embodiment of your best self or, or the loftiest. Thing that you can achieve.

[00:06:48] So, you know, self-esteem is on there and belonging and you know, things that you would get from work like fulfillment or meaning, and then, you know, the highest levels it’s, [00:07:00] it’s even more sophisticated.

[00:07:01] And, and so, you know, I think that maybe Einstein called Gandhi a Great Spirit. Because Gandhi tended to dwell at the highest level. I mean, I think when Gandhi died, he had two possessions you know, spectacles and a cane I think maybe were not counting his lo cloth but you know, his spectacles fetched like a, you know, couple hundred thousand dollars in an auction because people were like, that is, those are Gandhi specs.

[00:07:28] He only had one. Maybe he had two pair. That’s what he had. He didn’t have a mansion.

 The Lowest Level

[00:07:32] You think of the opposite of Gandhi as being somebody like Jeffrey Epstein, you know, he’s got everything a person could possibly want. That’s not enough. He also wants the souls of children, you know, to, to put it crudely.

[00:07:45] And you could see how he sort of stuck at that lowest level.

[00:07:48] He probably had great food, great wine sex with the 17 year old. And then, you know, back to food again. Yeah. Maybe a yacht, you know, a twirl around in the yacht or something, but really shallow levels of development.

Societal Values

[00:07:59] [00:08:00] I think that, you know, a case can be made though that certain values tend to crop up when you, you know, read people from Seneca on, through to Toni Morrison or, you know, whomever and people are always popping up like Ms Gorman. , Amanda Gorman, she’s 17. She made a big splash at Biden’s inaugural address because her poetry was, you know, very forceful and her presentation was sort of like otherworldly mm-hmm . And so she’s really young and obviously she’s tapped into some sort of special something wisdom, I guess you might call it because she’s interested in this rather than, you know, TikTok.

[00:08:36] Of course. Society is always kind of claw at those people being like, Hey, you should be interested in TikTok.

[00:08:42] You know, if Britney Spears. Alone on the desert island with a bunch of books, she would never have gone in the direction she did. It’s probably due to the, you know, her parents and people in the music industry who are like, here’s what, here’s what you’re capable of.

[00:08:56] Think about the money it’s gonna get you. And the attention from men, it’s gonna be amazing. Let’s [00:09:00] do this.

[00:09:00] And the parents of course hooked into that. I think in arguably

[00:09:04] anyway, just arriving to, to the main answer to the question is I think that there. You know, less than a hundred, let’s say values and virtues that wise people are attracted to and, and can exemplify.

Values of the Wise

[00:09:17] Jason: I guess if I were to name the 28 that I like the most, I would call them the values of the wise and, you know, they range from creativity to wisdom you know, creativity being first in, in alphabetical order and wisdom being last and, you know, included the lists are unusual choices such as humor. Or honor things like this.

[00:09:41] But essentially if you find a quote that you love, you know, one that was attributed to Gandhi incorrectly, I think I read be the change you wish to see in the world. You know, that fits into some sort of category of value, right?

[00:09:52] He was talking about human values, the things that. At the highest level drive human beings. And so you can, you know, choose [00:10:00] whichever value you think it’s about, but by all means, please read what he wrote and be interested in it and, and categorize it in your mind.

[00:10:07] According to some value, maybe do what some people do. They take a marker and they write on their mirror, be the change way to see in the world. They remember it, right, right. When they’re, you know, doing their hair

Reflecting on Our Values and Actions

[00:10:17] Miriam: I think that you’re, you’re not incorrect. There are hundreds of values and it sounds like possibly your book categorized 28. It seems like most people have the ability to hold five, maybe six. I had an interesting conversation with my son the other day, and I was talking about an influencer who was talking about the death of his dad

[00:10:39] on his deathbed. He asked his dad. What do you wanna say to us, or mm-hmm, , you know, kind of, what are your final words? And, and his dad had a series of short sentences be kind, take care of your mother do the work, you know, things like that.

[00:10:55] So I was talking with my son about what would that set of values be?

[00:10:59] If you know, [00:11:00] if that was me,

[00:11:00] what have you heard me talk about?

[00:11:02] And it was a very interesting conversation because everything he said. I had said many times, but things that I thought were values that I was speaking out loud, they are values. I do take action on them, but clearly I don’t make them as verbal as the others because he didn’t pick up on them.

[00:11:20] And I said, man, I gotta ramp up my game a little bit about what it is I talk about because these other things are as important.

Nuggets of Wisdom

[00:11:28] You know, I was saying things like Well, he was saying, I was saying things like:

[00:11:35] Take action.

[00:11:36] Be respectful.

[00:11:38] I was good with that. Those two were good.

[00:11:40] Don’t spend more than you earn.

[00:11:42] I was onboard with that, but I wished he had said

[00:11:46] Always be grateful.

[00:11:47] That is a value I hold and I speak in my journal, but apparently I don’t speak it out loud, quite as much as I need to, you know,

[00:11:56] Own your own life.

[00:11:58] Those are some of the things,

Deathbed Values

[00:11:59] Miriam: What are some of [00:12:00] the small sentences you would be saying on your deathbed of your values?

[00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, that’s a good question. And just as a little feedback, I think you know, a parent who speaks with their. Child about those kinds of things is obviously trying to transmit wisdom. And that is, that is laudable also to connect it, connect some. You know, content to some sort of process or value is also useful.

[00:12:28] So if they come home on time, you know, I appreciate your punctuality or I like the way you treated that person that was very respectful or the way you accepted losing that contest. That’s magnanimous. You know what I mean?

[00:12:43] So it associates actions that could be wisdom with the value of the virtue that was in your opinion involved.

[00:12:52] So I would say,

[00:12:53] Remember that there is this thing called honor or

[00:12:56] Wisdom is much deeper than [00:13:00] mere knowledge or

[00:13:02] Always try to keep your sense of humor, even if life is getting you down or

[00:13:07] Development is when you try to make progress in your life, be it intellectual, emotional, spiritual, physical, whatever, keep going for development.

Values in a Sentence

[00:13:18] Miriam: Those would probably be some examples. Yeah. And are those things that you see yourself saying, or are you saying that’s how you would give the sentence to the values?

[00:13:28] I mean, like what, I guess my question is, what are your sentences?

[00:13:33] Jason: I, I probably would be you know, I probably would exhaust myself to death sharing, you know, all the things I wanted to share on my deathbed. I was, I’m sort of a perfectionist, so I would be the kind of person who would. You know, get, get my scribe, you know, I’m gonna start, I’m gonna start speaking now and just on, on and on and on.

[00:13:54] But I think that’s one of the reasons why I, I find that books are worth the [00:14:00] trouble. And I mean the writing of them, because that is a way to put down writing now while you’re still alive.

[00:14:07] For the most part, you know, if you say it in writing and you publish it, it’s kind of you saying

[00:14:12] “here I stand. I can, I can do no other “as Martin Luther, Martin Luther said.

Complexity of Wisdom

[00:14:18] Miriam: What did you learn about yourself as you wrote that book?

[00:14:20] Jason: This latest one, I would say, you know, wisdom is very nuanced and it is composed of different parts and it’s contextual in nature.

[00:14:31] So you can make a statement that you think you believe, but if you go on. If you go

[00:14:40] around to the other side of the mountain and look up, you’re gonna see something different and you’re gonna say, okay, well, I know I said such and such and I, I don’t think that’s wrong.

[00:14:49] It’s just that I think it’s a little more complex now.

[00:14:51] Or, or maybe you’ll, maybe you’ll say it’s actually simpler than I thought,

[00:14:55] so you don’t really wanna you know, Chronicle your wisdom with [00:15:00] a a hammer and a chisel in a, in. Piece of stone because you won’t be able to erase. You should probably do it in a word processor.

[00:15:08] I forgot your question.

Make a Decision

[00:15:10] Miriam: What did you learn about yourself as you wrote the book? Right, right. That was at a high level. How about at a, at a more basic level?

[00:15:18] Jason: I, I realized that a, I had to make a decision along the way. I decided up front, I would share opinions, stories about things that I’ve done in the past that I thought reflected wisdom, or that did not reflect wisdom foolishness, maybe about myself.

[00:15:32] Mm-hmm and those provided little footholds, I think for folks who were a little less abstract.

[00:15:38] And, but I also had to ask. Am I going to speak about the social, cultural, political, religious values issues going on around me? Because you know, the book kind of gets frozen in time it kind of captures.

[00:15:54] The zeitgeist of the time and place in which the author finds himself.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] I had to ask myself, what’s more important to say what you think with little reservation and run the risk of having somebody be able to slam you in some sort of a review or whatever, or are you gonna try to go, you know, right to the middle and try to avoid stepping in pitfalls.

[00:16:20] And I chose the former.

[00:16:23] Miriam: I wanna jump back to your the statement you made just shortly before this the context of these values.

[00:16:31] I took a test. I’m gonna go with five or six years ago and I don’t remember the name of it, but it basically categorized these 20 values that pretty much every normal human being has and holds, but it put them in the order of your own personal importance.

Value Test

[00:16:49] And what it meant is that you believe both these things are true and valuable, but when push comes to shove, you’re gonna choose this value over that value.

[00:16:57] And. [00:17:00] Like a simple example, I would say, would be relationship and truth. There are certain types of people who will basically allow the relationship to go away to camp on what is right. There are other types of people who also believe in truth, but who will elevate the value of relationship over what they think to be true.

[00:17:24] And society actually needs both kinds of people because the one kind of person keeps society together. And the other kind of person keeps society ordered.

[00:17:34] And so you have, you know, the policeman who has to say you broke the law and the judge who has to say you broke the law. And the priest who gets to come in and offer you, solace while you’re in jail and bringing comfort in this way or the other, like the one person can understand that, yes, this fundamental truth was broken, disturbed, et cetera.

[00:17:59] But I [00:18:00] choose to remain connected to you as a human being because of your humanity.

[00:18:04] And the other says, I get that you’re a human and you don’t deserve to be, you know, strung up, but I’m not gonna let this pass.

[00:18:14] Right. And the type of person might be the nun who was featured in the, the movie dead man walking.

Right Thing to Do

[00:18:23] She, it was, she was played by Susan. And I dunno if you remember the movie, but Sean pin I believe was, was sentenced to die. And, you know, Sean pin was kind of a hardcore guy, but because she, or because her role was to provide comfort to death row inmates, she made a huge impact on him. And, and, but, you know, spoiler alert by the end he was crying.

[00:18:46] . The nun is like, I’m gonna, not only am I gonna give of my time to you, but I’m going to love you. It is gonna be based on you as a human being who deserves respect and should be treated like a Thou, a T H O U.[00:19:00]

[00:19:01] We’ll relate to like that. And we’ll see if we can’t even preserve your life because, you know, she was in, in one sense, she was trying to you know, get him to. Admit that he was wrong, which is something that you virtually never get the typical death or inmate to do. But she was trying to get Sean Penn’s character to accept that what he did was wrong.

Complex Perspective

[00:19:24] Not because it, it entails some sort of salvation in an afterlife, but because it’s the right thing to do and it kind of draws his life to a completion in, in a way that wouldn’t be done. If he was going to the elector chair saying, I didn’t do this. And the system’s corrupt and you know, the prosecutor, you know, and the family, the family doesn’t know anything.

[00:19:48] And I didn’t do that to that person. It’s like, when you could really accept what you did was wrong. and think of it in a, in, from that complex perspective, like why did you do that? What was going on in your world that you would [00:20:00] do that to another person that’s really rich stuff. And it reminds me of the idea of restorative justice, which as you probably know, is a thing and, and as far superior to incarceration.

[00:20:12] So yeah, go ahead and talk about it a little bit. I am aware of it, but I don’t believe I could speak to it. Very eloquently. So speak a little bit about restorative justice.

Restorative Justice

[00:20:24] Jason: I’m not sure if I can speak to it terribly eloquently, but you know, criminal justice is based on, on a theory. And the theory is kind of muddled in this criminal justice system in America, but it has a lot to do with separating the dangerous person, the rest of society.

[00:20:43] And that’s a good thing. However, it also has to do with a kind of a pernicious type of social control.

[00:20:50] And it serves a way of, of punishing the offender by subjecting them.

[00:20:56] What I think could note, could be described as nothing less than, you [00:21:00] know, inhumane treatment, be it, the cell, the size of the cell, the fact that, you know, they don’t really do a very good job with education or any type of real. You know, self growth, but rather it’s kind of just like biding your time.

[00:21:16] It’s pretty well known that folks, you know, fleece each other and engage in various kinds of crimes in jail, up to, and including sexual assault as a punishment for not participating, et cetera, cetera, etc. So, If that’s what the criminal justice system is based on to say to somebody, I sentence you to, to live in this for the rest of your natural life, which might in some cases be 70 years.

[00:21:42] And there’s a, you know, asterisks here and that is that you may not have done the crime because as you know, from the innocence project, a lot of people didn’t even commit the crime. Yeah.

Example of Restorative Justice

[00:21:52] Anyway, so restorative justice, as a way of saying, instead of doing what’s called the, what I’ve been describing is retributive justice. [00:22:00] As in retribution for a crime, we’re going to re request and require that you try to restore what you have done by committing the crime. So for example, they might.

[00:22:11] The victim and the perpetrator in the same room at the same time with some sort of qualified mediator, counselor type of person, to be able to protect the, the victim. And once that, that inmate has has reached a level of development in the recognition of their crime that they’re able. To talk to the victim and accept responsibility for it. And to some degree, apologize for it.

[00:22:42] I mean, I’ve seen examples. I forget if it was a movie or movies or Netflix or whatever, but I mean, the inmate is crying. The victim’s crying, my wife’s crying, I’m crying, you know, and it just leaves you with the completely different sense than if you were to just imagine somebody sitting in a [00:23:00] six foot by 10 foot cell, smoking cigarettes and doing pushups for the rest of their life.

[00:23:05] There’s two very different paths to where trying to make something positive come of, of the situation.

End Goals

[00:23:13] Miriam: Yeah. Well, the one you’re describing is “preventing more harm” to society, obviously not to the individual. The other is bringing something positive out of the harm that was done. And those are very different end goals.

[00:23:30] I was thinking when you were talking about the nun, that the reason that, that conversation, and if that person was guilty for them to express that they were guilty or confess that they were guilty is that it brings congruence- inner and outer congruence, which I, I believe is a value

[00:23:47] when people don’t feel like their insides match their outsides, there’s all sorts of stress and anxiety and depression. All sorts of mental health issues come from when you’re [00:24:00] living one thing on the inside, and you’re saying something else or living something else on the outside.

[00:24:06] Jason: right. And self sabotage mm-hmm yep.

[00:24:11] Miriam: That’s something my talk about all the time.

A Message From LeaveBetter

 

Self-Sabotage and Value Systems

[00:24:51] Miriam: Mm-hmm how how would you see or say people self sabotage themselves with their value systems?[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Jason: Well, you know, I think they’re probably levels and of course you would be the better person to speak to this, but because of your expertise, that is You know, there’s the sort of clinical counseling level where you would investigate and explore in concert with the client. You know, why did you do what you did?

[00:25:23] Let’s think about the deepest levels of that. It was obviously kind of a negative outcome. It’s not what you say you want for yourself. Didn’t provide good results. So why did you do that? That’s one level of examination of self sabotage.

[00:25:38] But there’s a kind of a lighter and, and more arguable sense. I think that I can speak to as well. And that is, you know, if all you do is absorb the culture’s mores and, and values. You may only achieve, you know, kind of a minimal level of, of moral [00:26:00] development.

[00:26:01] And along with that, you know, psychological, spiritual, emotional development. And that would be sad because that’s not achieving a person’s high as potential.

Think For Yourself

[00:26:11] So it’s not. Self sabotage in the sense that you drank again, which is obviously, you know, suitable for that clinical space to, to examine.

[00:26:21] But if all you do is say, I go to church on Sundays, I try to listen to the homily. It really is boring, but I do it anyway. And maybe, maybe later that week, I might think about it.

[00:26:33] I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think about when I’m gambling, cuz it’s kind of boring when you’re at the gambling table and you have extra time on your hands. Or maybe if my wife and I are fighting, I’ll throw the homily at her as a way to try to score a point. That person is just basically picking up on. What they heard and, and that’s only like one level above a parrot, which can also repeat things that have been said to it repeatedly.

[00:26:57] Yeah. So I think to be able to think for yourself [00:27:00] would be the, the virtue that would overcome that type of self sabotage.

Match Your Heart with Your Actions

[00:27:04] Miriam: Yeah. There’s no integration of the information. It’s, it’s a different form. Of non- congruence it is still the inside not matching the outside, but the issue is that this virtuous thing, whatever it is is on the outside of you.

[00:27:20] And it’s only penetrated, you know, sunscreen deep and it’s not actually getting through to your core.

[00:27:27] I was talking to a friend today about a situation I had seen with a people- pleasing person who looked like they had empathy because they did whatever the other person asked them to do. But I knew them well.

[00:27:42] And actually empathy is something they struggle with. And It was sunscreen, deep empathy. Right. You know, it wasn’t to the core, to the heart, to the marrow.

[00:27:53] So if someone would like to grow in their assimilation of values [00:28:00] what is your opinion is a way to up your values game .

[00:28:04] Beyond reading, because unfortunately I have found so many people today do not read

Values Inventory

[00:28:12] Jason: I have a little inventory that a person can take for free and with no advertisements where it, it helps them to understand their values better.

[00:28:22] Mm-hmm and the way that I do that is by throwing. 175 or whatever quotations at them. And I say, rate this quote on a scale of one to 10. Yeah. And, and the computer is able to assess, you know, do they tend to like a certain value more than. So the computer can tell you, you really seem to like the creativity, ingenuity and vision. Quotations and what you, you know, the one you like the least is truth and justice, and here’s how the other ones rank as well.

[00:28:56] And so that’s a, a way to, you know, kind of characterize, [00:29:00] if you just have more consciousness about what your values are, then that can go a long way to Helping your values game.

[00:29:09] Because some people, you really confuse them. You know, if you, sit down and say, excuse me, can I ask you, what are your values?

[00:29:16] It’s just the, conversation’s probably not gonna work out right. For one reason or another. Agreed. That is to say that maybe the, the person who lives in that town, they just don’t really think about it. They think about other things.

Freedom

[00:29:28] Yeah, sometimes they do because they sometimes say “I stand for freedom.”

[00:29:34] And so then obviously you’d wanna know what exactly do you mean by that?

[00:29:39] Yeah. And of course, if they say, well, I mean, I mean I support the freedom to say whatever you want and not be censored.

[00:29:46] Okay. That’s good.

[00:29:47] How about the freedom to choose whether or not you’re going to raise, you know, a fetus into a child and care for them until they’re 25 years old.

[00:29:56] Is that, is that freedom to you or is that somehow different than freedom?

[00:29:59] And [00:30:00] so it can lead to like a very three dimensional, very in depth, look at you know, what your values are.

[00:30:06] If you just kind of think about, ’em talk about, ’em read about, ’em think about ’em while you’re walking in a forest. You know, do things that are values oriented and it’s different than what you’re gonna get.

[00:30:19] If you just adopt this standard you know, values of society, which tend to be what, like the pursuit of money is extremely important.

[00:30:28] People need to like you,

[00:30:30] they need to like, whatever you say on social media you know

[00:30:33] You’re sort of a a consumer first and foremost.

[00:30:38] There’s another tribe out there whom you’re supposed to hate.

[00:30:40] You know what I mean? Things like this.

Values of Others

[00:30:42] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that last few minutes took my brain so many different places.

[00:30:48] I was thinking at a smaller level, an easy way to find out what people value – you know, what is important to you?

[00:30:56] And I loved your question about, well, what does that [00:31:00] mean?

[00:31:00] And then, but then you took it, you know, does it mean this? Does it mean this does mean this?

[00:31:04] And they were all maybe politically opposite or religiously opposite.

[00:31:08] And what I have found in today’s day and age, Is that people are not good at holding other people’s values that are diametrically opposite of theirs without getting hot under the collar.

[00:31:22] And one of the spaces that I’m trying to encourage is civil dialogue about things that maybe you don’t believe. And can you see this person and have a respectful conversation and allow them to stretch your thinking if they’re a different political party or if they’re a different religious entity or if they’re a different gender or, you know, whate whatever, can you take the other person’s perspective long enough to understand why that particular thing is important to them?

[00:31:53] Or do you X them immediately?

Books

[00:31:56] Miriam: I wanna jump back to the book space and I [00:32:00] want to ask you’ve written at least three or four. I understand it to be difficult to write a book. I have not written a book. I have started several books, but I have not finished several books.

[00:32:13] Talk to me about the process of beginning, middle and. Of that rolled in along with your value systems, because I’m pretty sure your values drive your actions or behaviors. And those are the things that get the books done. And I, I just want to understand, I wanna pull this conversation out of the abstract and into the concrete, because out of any.

[00:32:41] There’s any number of people who are abstract and are like just traveling along the rails with us. And then there’s another subset of people that are like, what are they talking about? I want, I would really like it to be practical as well.

Autobiographies

[00:32:55] Jason: You know, I’ve taken many, many classes and it can be difficult to [00:33:00] read memorize, write et cetera, in a subject that doesn’t really move you.

[00:33:07] So that’s why autobiographies are somewhat of the easiest stuff to write, because it’s you telling your story about yourself, right. And your move to do that because you have you find meaning in that in one way or another.

[00:33:22] There’s a kind of movement now to do stuff at the end of your life, where you pass on your story and your values, whatever to, to your children and grandchildren, you know, in the form of a book.

[00:33:34] Maybe in a form of various audio recordings or whatever, but that can, you you’d be motivated to do that because you want them to know these things and you want them to know you and maybe think highly of you. So obviously you gotta know, you have to know something about something because you can’t write a book.

[00:33:52] I could not write a book about mountaineering or Splunking. Because I don’t know anything about those two things. It would be [00:34:00] impossible,

[00:34:00] but if you’re, mark Twain, you’re interested in stuff, you could write a stack of books, and do numerous speaking tours, and his way of thinking about things was unique enough that. If he put it in writing,

[00:34:13] it could be very useful to other people because he had an inimitable style.

Write To Your Interests

[00:34:17] . So anyway you know, why would I write a book about wisdom is because I’m that interested in, in the subject and because I think I have something to share and because. For me, authorship represented values, like education, communication mastery of a subject. There’s probably some self concern in there, you know, I dunno if I’d say self aggrandizement, but. You know, if you knew that you’d have to put your book through a shredder, as soon as you wrote it, it wouldn’t be quite as exciting as if you know, people are gonna read it.

[00:34:51] The good news for aspiring authors is that now is a pretty easy time to get your book published because you, you know, we live in a, in an era where [00:35:00] you don’t have to ask anybody if, if they will accept your book, you put it up on Amazon or do you know something similar with it and the answer’s.

[00:35:07] Yes.

[00:35:07] Miriam: How about getting you through the process?

[00:35:11] You have to have sticktuitiveness because you feel like doing something in hour, one doesn’t mean that you’re gonna. Motivated enough to continue, but that’s, that’s what your art requires.

[00:35:23] If you know, Michael Angelo started to chip away at that piece of marble that became David. Which it took him months to find, by the way looking for the right piece.

David Statue

[00:35:35] He finally found it. And you know, if he would have chiseled for five days and been like, this is kind of hard on the wrist. Geez. I think maybe I should go back to painting, you know, we would never have, we would not have David. Yeah. But it’s because he was relentless with it and perfectionistic and truly cared about the art and what he was trying to demonstrate that it just kept him.

[00:35:57] Kept him going.

[00:35:58] You kinda have to have that [00:36:00] fire within to deal with the challenges that writing a book and perfecting a book and proofreading a book and publishing a book and promoting a book are gonna cost you. So if you don’t love it, Don’t do it because you’ll certainly face the costs. The question is, are the benefits gonna outweigh those costs?

[00:36:19] Yeah, well spoken.

[00:36:21] I love that word. Relentless. It’s one of my favorite words. It just speaks to grit and stick- to- it-ive-ness.

[00:36:29] Well, we’re coming up to kind of about the end. I wanna ask two other quick questions besides your own, what book would you recommend to someone if they wanted to grow in terms of wisdom?

Books on Wisdom

[00:36:43] Jason: Hmm, well, I think it probably would be Steven S Hall’s 2010 book called wisdom from. Philosophy to neuroscience. I was influenced greatly by Steven Hall’s book. He certainly interviewed dozens and dozens of big names [00:37:00] in philosophy, psychology you know, neuropsychiatry, all kinds of stuff.

[00:37:04] He starts out with Confucius and Socrates and goes right up to, you know, what is an F MRI scan and what does it reveal about the brain?

[00:37:11] What is the brain doing when you’re meditating? What is the brain doing when you’re competing with somebody? Psychological game, et cetera, etcetera.

[00:37:19] Miriam: Well, we’ll put that in the show notes for sure. How can people find you and reach you,

[00:37:25] Jason: well, the book can be found@amazon.com

[00:37:27] I’d say, instead of searching for the word wisdom, they should maybe search for my, my name. And then I have the, the website that, that we’ve been discussing a bit called valuesofthewise.com and you know, there’s a lot of things you can do on the website that don’t cost money and don’t require a subscription or anything. I, I just put it out there because I want people to be interested in these types of things.

Charities

[00:37:50] I think if somebody were to, if actually, if somebody were to, to have, a hours to. To kill, they could do worse than you know, hanging around the website because there’s a lot [00:38:00] that you can explore.

[00:38:01] Miriam: Yeah. I only had a little bit of time to look at it, but my first thought was I’m coming back. There were some great things to check out and I definitely am going to do it.

[00:38:12] Before we started recording. I had mentioned charities that I regularly gift. And you had chosen the Sheldrick wild animal trust, you’ll be receiving an adoption of a tiny orphan elephant. You’ll get once a month for a year, an update on that orphan.

[00:38:29] I know of the charity. I also search on charity navigator.com and try to go for those four star charities.

[00:38:36] If you ever spend a little time looking at their website, you know, the way that those little elephants you know, they deserve good things in life rather than to be abandoned due to this strange human desire for Ivory.

[00:38:48] Jason: Yeah. The height of non- wisdom, the height foolishness, we’re destroying our global treasures for something that’s just folly.

[00:38:58] Exactly.

[00:38:58] So, oh my [00:39:00] goodness, Jason, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. And let’s do this again sometime.

[00:39:06] Yeah, it’s been a pleasure.

 

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[00:00:00] Miriam: I am so excited today to have Clarissa Burt with us.

[00:00:03] You have been involved in, well, your own company, Limelight Media, which deals with TV, video podcast, digital magazines, you’ve been involved in that entertainment industry for quite a while. And if I understand, right, you were part of the survivor series who survived. Somebody survived. Yes.

[00:00:26] I mean, so many interesting things.

Advocate for Women

[00:00:28] Miriam: Start telling me a little bit about. Who you see yourself now and even where those roots were traced from before?

[00:00:37] Clarissa: I’m very passionate about the position and condition of women, that it’s their birthright to be and feel safe.

[00:00:42] It is their birthright to be loved and respected. It is their birthright to to be able to do whatever it is that they feel that they wanna do in life.

[00:00:50] So my mother was a beautiful woman, toxic relationship, got pregnant with me, you know, in high school. My grandmother was, you know, lovely, one of the most kindhearted women you’d [00:01:00] ever meet and grandma was unhappy with her weight. She didn’t need to lose an ounce, but she took two diet pills, one day, she choked on them, perforated her esophagus and wound up in the hospital for the next six weeks.

[00:01:11] My modeling years gave me the possibility to be working with some of the most beautiful, you know, physically beautiful creatures on the planet. They were drinking and drugging and, or cutting or doing things that I just didn’t understand.

[00:01:23] There was this undercurrent, this underlying theme, if you will, that became really apparent.

Pageant Days

[00:01:28] I also ran and produced the Miss universe pageant. You know, there was always something amiss, you know, frequently, not always, but frequently something amiss.

[00:01:37] I realized that there was that common denominator and it was lack of self-esteem or very low self-esteem. And so my mission has been, To see women all over the globe, living in happy, healthy self-esteem. That’s the reason why I wrote this book.

[00:01:52] Miriam: You’ve brought up something that I think is very interesting when you are clearly a woman who is beautiful yourself, but [00:02:00] also talented intelligent. You’re the CEO of your own company. You ran a pageant, you know, the pageantry space. You won survivor. There’s a lot of moving pieces in that.

[00:02:12] I want to know how you maintain your presence, where you appeal to both men and women equally.

[00:02:20] Like this is what you tried to do with your book.

[00:02:22] I’m not speaking just to women— self-esteem is important for men. And you didn’t say this, but as a therapist, I know that a lot of the toxic relationships that happen are because both parties have really low self-esteem and both are trying to prove something with each other and with themselves.

[00:02:39] And self-esteem really makes a huge difference as to how someone treats someone.

[00:02:45] When you have self respect, you treat the other person with self respect.

[00:02:50] So speak to me a little bit about how you learned to command both audiences,

Self-Esteem for All Genders

[00:02:54] Clarissa: In order to be able to to be able to attract both audiences, both female and male, you have to be [00:03:00] speaking truth

[00:03:00] Because there’s one thing they know how to get through the BS pretty quickly when they, when they see it or smell it or hear it.

[00:03:06] You don’t ever wanna betray, you know, that gut instinct that pit of your stomach feeling because it’s telling you, you always know what’s right or wrong.

[00:03:16] And by the way, if you have to ask the question, you probably, you got your answer already. But don’t betray what is really truth.

[00:03:23] Another thing that’s really important is that we all wanna be loved. We all wanna be, respected, to feel safe, to live in a safe household. And if that is being betrayed, that is definitely a space you don’t wanna be continuing to stay in.

If It Hurts, It’s Probably Not Love

[00:03:34] Clarissa: Look, I always say if it hurts, it’s not love. If it’s hurting your feelings, if it’s hurting your body, if it’s hurting your mind, if it’s hurting any part of you hurts, it’s probably not love it’s addiction, it’s attraction. It’s many other things we could be here all day, you know, to describing. But it’s probably not love.

[00:03:56] So be careful with throwing that word around too much, make sure that [00:04:00] you know exactly what love is and what it means. And normally that means being supported. It means being respected. It means being given your space, it means wanting to learn about the other as the other wants to continue to learn about you. And to really listening to one another in relationship, really wanting to be there for one another. No eye rolling. No. You’ll never change. Oh, you’re always the same. None of that. That’s not nice. It’s not kind. And it doesn’t work.

Emotional Intelligence

[00:04:28] Be a class act. And, and the golden rule always works. Miriam. The golden rule always works, you know, treat others as you wish to be treated.

[00:04:36] And with that goes never, ever be afraid to say,” I’m sorry.” If you have made a mistake or said something you truly didn’t mean, or don’t say something because you want to hurt someone. What’s that like, where’s that coming from?

[00:04:51] You know, I wouldn’t want to be with anyone that wants to hurt me. Right? Yeah. Whether it be mentally, physically, emotionally, no matter how so.[00:05:00]

[00:05:01] You know, emotional intelligence is something that we probably need to be spending more time on- all of us.

[00:05:06] Miriam: Well spoken.

[00:05:08] Can I ask you to get into some specific examples of things you saw?

[00:05:13] There are certain industries that attract kind of the toxicity that you were talking about. What I have heard is that the media and TV, and there’s kind of a lot of personalities there that are either primadonnas or narcissistic.

Recognizing Toxicity in Real Time

[00:05:28] Miriam: I’m talking about like concrete examples where someone does something toxic and someone else responds as a class act, not rolling over, not saying nothing, not retorting back, but has that class act.

[00:05:44] and in a sense makes it very clear. That was not okay, but I’m not gonna be aggressive about it.

[00:05:51] Clarissa: Right? Loyalty is having my back behind my back. Mm-hmm loyalty is having at me having your back behind your back. So [00:06:00] think about the last time you walked up to a water cooler situation, you walked up to a group.

[00:06:06] People and they were talking smack about, there was, you know, unkindly about someone else that you may know.

[00:06:13] Did you stand there and defend that other friend of yours that wasn’t there to defend herself? Or did you join?

[00:06:19] Or did you, or did you just walk away and do nothing about.

Do The Right Thing

[00:06:25] Clarissa: I come back to saying, doing the right thing, the wrong thing. Would’ve been to engage, to start gossiping, to wanna throw more fuel on the fire

[00:06:35] I know what betrayal feels like.

[00:06:37] I think we all do. And it’s one of the worst feelings on the planet. So why would I want to set myself up to hurt anyone in that way?

[00:06:49] Miriam: Well spoken well spoken.

[00:06:52] I’m gonna ask you for another example.

[00:06:54] For people who are involved in a situation where someone above them has power and [00:07:00] is being toxic. What’s your advice or input?

Toxic Environments

[00:07:04] Clarissa: Well, in the workspace, it really is a conundrum because people don’t wanna lose their jobs.

[00:07:09] They’re kind of feeling really yucky about the space and the place they’re in I don’t wanna be in that kind of environment.

[00:07:13] So I would either do one of two things. I’d just leave the environment and go somewhere where I know that the, the corporate culture does not tolerate that sort of thing. And you know, if you’re good enough at your job, then you’re living in this kind of integrity. You should be able to find another job. I would hope relatively easily,

[00:07:28] one of my favorite words of all time is integrity. Take it to higher ups and see what they can, they, you know, they plan on doing about it.

[00:07:37] Miriam: Okay. I’m gonna take it one step further

[00:07:39] I mean, toxicity is a word that’s just sort of banter about. Right. But. Sometimes it’s difficult to define, but you know, it, when you experience it, it goes back to that lack of safety or you feel like you’re being cut down or you’re invisible

[00:07:54] Clarissa: yeah. I think, I think one of the things that I’d like to offer up right now is that and, and again, I say this to all, but you certainly [00:08:00] those in leaderships and that our CEOs of, you know, their own companies, we are leaders and that means we need to lead and we need to do that high.

A Blueprint for Self-Esteem

[00:08:08] Clarissa: And I don’t mean get high. I mean, we want to live with a high mindset.

[00:08:14] And that means living in honesty, radical honesty with yourself and with others, it means living in integrity. It means living in greatness and gratitude, and it means living in honor. So that’s high. H I G H. And I gave you two GS, just because it’s you Miriam. I gave you a double whammy there.

[00:08:35] Miriam: I love it.

[00:08:35] Clarissa: But you know, we’re losing, we’re losing. And if we don’t learn how to bring them all together, find them again and put, put them into our daily B blueprint. We might as well just shut it all down

[00:08:50] Miriam: agreed. Thank you for that. Repeat it one more time.

H.I.G.H

[00:08:54] H stands for

[00:08:55] Clarissa: Honesty,

[00:08:56] integrity. Gratitude and [00:09:00] honor.

[00:09:01] I mean, when someone says, you know, Clarrisa you, you are such a woman of honor.

[00:09:06] I mean, you just made my whole lifetime , you know, and, and it, and it has been said to me, and it means the world to me, because honor means that you’re honest. People feel safe with you. They know that they can trust you. They know that you are loyal,

[00:09:20] As the, as the water rises, it raises all ships or something.

[00:09:23] We could all live in that higher vibrational place and space. And I don’t mean to sound woo, woo. But all of these higher vibrational words bring higher vibrational thinking. And if we can do that in all with all of our relationships, we are then not perpetuating the toxic.

[00:09:42] But again, if you stay and live by that value system list, make a list. It’s a blueprint, right. I wanna be for example, better person today than I am tomorrow than I am. I don’t know how I may do that. It might be with a kind word, a compliment to drink an extra glass of water,

The Four Pillars

[00:09:59] Clarissa: These are really [00:10:00] my four pillars.

[00:10:00] If you will. Yeah. Of happy, healthy self-esteem, which is look good. Feel good. Be good and greater. Good.

Feel Good

[00:10:07] Clarissa: So, you know, feel good is I’m taking care of my body. I’m eating properly. I’m eating clean, I’m drinking more water. I’m mindful of the kind of water I’m drinking. What’s in that water.

Look Good

[00:10:18] Clarissa: Looking good is something is subjective to everyone.

[00:10:20] If you, when you look good, you’ve got another kind of lilt in your step, you know, you do. And there you go. Look and feel good,

Be Good

[00:10:26] Clarissa: be good – what are you listening to where you getting your education from change it up a little bit. Only take what serves you? What do you need right now?

Greater Good

[00:10:34] Clarissa: And then of course, you know, your greater good is, you know, paying it forward, paying it back, tithing, volunteering, doing the right thing.

[00:10:41] Miriam: Yeah. All right. Can I ask you to take H.I.G.H. And put it in your Survivor situation while , you were in this contest and you see a lot of people do a lot of dirty stuff on there.

Survivor

[00:10:54] Clarissa: So honesty I was on survivor. It was Italian survivor. It was celebrity version of that. We were in Nicarag [00:11:00] 2011.

[00:11:01] And we got on the island around beginning of February. It was very tropical, rainy. I mean, the conditions were horrible. It was just the kind of stuff that wanted to put you in the worst mood of all.

[00:11:09] H.I.G.H., I think honesty was one of the things that transpired immediately because there was a lot of conniving and, you know, we’re gonna make you know, all these different associations between us and like, guys, I don’t know. I just, I’m not feeling that, you know, and so right away I was Marginated. Right. They didn’t really wanna have me in their team. They wouldn’t want me around. And I was just, I was alone. I was on my own and I was okay doing that.

[00:11:34] Second thing was integrity. We were very hungry. We lost a lot of weight on that. And there were a couple of girls that were coercing the younger girls, the pretier girls, I was already 53 on the island. So some of the younger pretier girls were running around the bikinis and they were coercing behind the scenes.

[00:11:56] Cameramen to bring them food. [00:12:00] The three of the girls, there were two of the younger girls and myself got into a helicopter one day and went from point A to point B. I forget where they were taking us. And what they did was started a hand out food and I refused it.

Gratitude

[00:12:16] Now, remember I was starving.

[00:12:18] And these girls made a pact with these guys to bring food into the elevator so they could eat because we were really that hungry. I refused the food. And that’s what I believe is what you call integrity. Now they were afraid of me that I was going to tell on them.

[00:12:37] Living in gratitude was really feeling that good about myself. I think at that point I was so in gratitude that I was living on this beautiful island, on Nicaragua, I wasn’t so happy about the no-see-ums that consumed me, but out then it was like the mosquito thing. Yeah. But but outside of that, I was really living in gratitude that I was having this most amazing experience away from the world away from friends, family. [00:13:00] Cell phones, computers.

[00:13:01] And I was able to live the heartbeat, if you will, of the island, right? Yeah. Up when the sun comes up, sleep, when the sun goes down, you know, and all the movement that happens when you have nothing to do, but pay attention to the crashing of the waves.

[00:13:16] Right.

Honor

[00:13:17] And then living in honor and living in honor, I would have to say again was just the way I played the game the entire way around, which was, you know, Wanting to do the right thing. I immediately became the, the go-to person for anyone that was in difficulty on the island, psychologically, emotionally, I was the one that people would come to, to talk to the girls would come and get some hugs and some love.

[00:13:42] I was the, one of the elders, you know, so it was, they were calling me Aunt Clarissa.

[00:13:46] And, and so I think that that was really being able, it was an honorable thing to do even funnily enough, once a week, they would bring on the psychologist, and then she’d go, Clarissa, how are you doing?

[00:13:58] I’m like, I’m having that time of my life. How are you [00:14:00] doing? And she’d start pitching one and complaining about how, you know, difficult it. And I, so I wound up being the psychologist. For the team psychologist, which was really interesting.

[00:14:10] So that’s awesome. Yeah. That that’s, you know, a good foundation for your book.

[00:14:15] I love that.

A Message From LeaveBetter

[00:14:17] Clarissa: Hey, this is Miriam jumping back in. Are you looking to go to the next level in your life or business right now? That’s what lead better is about my friend. We give you the coaching to level up, have those breakthrough. So you can stop the self sabotage that keeps you where you are currently.

[00:14:33] Let’s make self-improvement a way of life. Go to leavebetter.com and download the free resource that’s there today. We change them regularly. So go and see what’s new at leavebetter.com. Now back to our interview.

Self-Sabotage and Procrastination

[00:14:52] Clarissa: My business has to do with helping people overcome the self sabotage that keeps them from their best life and their [00:15:00] best in business.

[00:15:01] As you’re telling all of these stories that are so interesting and uplifting as you’ve looked at people throughout your lifespan, what are some ways that you have seen them self sabotage themselves?

Ways People Self-Sabotage

[00:15:14] Clarissa: I, I think I still do it sometimes as well.

[00:15:16] You know, sometimes I just I procrastinate, I get so overwhelmed with work that I shut down. I don’t know where to start. I’ll take it. I’ll take a day off. And, and that’s a procrastination kind of thing. It’s also a little bit of self sabotage.

[00:15:29] I probably take way too much on my plate, but I wanna do it all. You know, so I have to, I have to learn how to how to pace myself a little bit better there.

[00:15:38] As far as self sabotage is concerned when people, people get very uncomfortable, the closer they get to success, the closer they get to their goal, the closer they get to their dream, because they start, you know, they start asking themselves if they really deserve it.

[00:15:50] And so there, and again, lies a self-esteem issue, which it I’m gonna tell you right now, you do, you deserve it.

Self-Esteem

[00:15:56] You’re gonna work and play your way through this, but life will [00:16:00] trigger you. There’s never a, a test you take on, self-esteem get a hundred percent. It’s not gonna, it doesn’t work that way.

[00:16:04] As we know some, some days are up, some days are down, but you know you know, let’s start thinking about other people and how we might be able to ease ease their their pain, their difficulties, their, you know, unsure moments.

[00:16:17] Miriam: Yes. What I hear you saying is that some of the ways that people self sabotage themselves is that they have distorted views of who they are as a human being. And then they focus and fixate on those distorted views.

[00:16:33] And if they get their eyes off of themselves and onto someone else and helping someone else that dissipates some of that energy and then do the work yeah. And change these maladaptive views of yourself.

[00:16:47] Clarissa: I’m here to tell you that you are so much more than enough that you know. You have the same potential possibilities that everyone else does? Nothing comes for free. You will work for whatever it is that you that you achieve. And that’s part of the beauty of it.

Balance & Focus

[00:16:59] [00:17:00] It’s the work that you put into it, right? Whether it be your business, your product, your service, or yourself.

[00:17:06] Is self-esteem 1 0 1 doing something really good for someone else and taking the, the focus off of you. Yeah. But you definitely wanna continue to constantly be working on the betterment of yourself.

[00:17:17] Miriam: There is this balance between the focus on the other person to get my eyes off myself, to be humble, but also the focus on myself to grow me because the bigger I am, the more I can give.

[00:17:31] And that’s really what my company is talking about is

[00:17:35] let’s, let’s do some coaching. Let’s get you creating more revenue, and now don’t be a selfish jerk with it. Do something good with that revenue? We need good people doing good things for those who are less fortunate.

[00:17:48] If you could turn back the clock and speak to your, the earlier version of yourself, what would you say to her?

Don’t Be Afraid

[00:17:55] Clarissa: Just, just do it and don’t be afraid. I think fear has held me back on [00:18:00] so many occasions in life.

[00:18:01] We’re all born for greatness, everybody, you know, we all have that, that possibility and the capability, we just have to tap into it.

[00:18:08] And, and the support system that we create around us is of the utmost importance. Some of us did not come from supportive backgrounds.

[00:18:18] A lot of us came from toxic and it is our job to stop the toxic in its tracks and to turn it around and to make our lives, the life that we wanna live.

[00:18:31] Miriam: Yeah, well spoken.

[00:18:33] You seem like a person who’s not down very often. You’ve got a lot of energy and you’re extremely positive and forward thinking.

Take Time for Self Care

[00:18:41] Clarissa: I take a little bit of time off. I’ll do a mask. I’ll do a bath. I’ll do my essential oils. I’ll turn on the lounge music. I create a Zen like atmosphere and then I’ll scroll, scroll through TikTok for two hours and really just. Take a couple of steps back, relax, give myself the time that I [00:19:00] need, maybe make a phone call or two to a girlfriend that I know will pick up and, I know that will be there for me.

[00:19:04] I talk about the daily demons in the book and, you know, the daily demons that come in and, you know, you can’t, you won’t, you’re not good enough, all that stuff.

[00:19:12] And how I used to really have a conversation with all of this and it, and it was kind of not fun. N ow I just go, wait a minute. Are you back? And just, you know, like really we not, we’re done. We’re done. We’re done. We’re done.

[00:19:26] Miriam: What I appreciate about what you’re saying is that you have honed your emotional intelligence about yourself to the point where you can say.

Take Control

[00:19:37] Okay. I’m starting to feel down. What does this mean? What boundaries have I not placed in my life? What am I looking at or listening to? Yeah. Or partaking of that is putting me in this place. Mm-hmm let me take a step back and do some self care. Let me reach out to some of my friends. Yeah. Let me accept some of their love. Then you can shift that place. You [00:20:00] catch it before it goes down the slippery slope. We are in control of our moods a thousand percent more than we give ourselves credit for

[00:20:07] So many people blame it on them. They did this, they did that, but.

[00:20:12] We allow it, we allow exposure to the toxicity or we allow the worry. Yes. Or we allow the overworking we, you know, we allow things that sabotage our lives

[00:20:25] We’re about to the end. Where can people find you?

[00:20:28] I do have a website. The best way to get to me is through social. Okay. Uh, We’re reworking the website right now. But you can definitely get with me on social or clarissa@clarisaburke.com.

Links

[00:20:37] In the show notes, we will put all of those links. It’s been such a joy to have this opportunity to hear from you. I mentioned before we started, I gave you the opportunity to choose from four charities and you chose best friends, animal sanctuary. We’re gonna make a donation in the honor of your mom, cuz she’s excited about that.

[00:20:56] Yeah. And we just wanted to say thank you for leaving [00:21:00] our world better. And I hope that this interview has left you better as well

[00:21:04] . Absolutely.

[00:21:05] Clarissa: Thank you so much for your time, Miriam.

 

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Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

All LeaveBetter Podcast episodes can be found here.

Music by Tom Sherlock.

 

 

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